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AnnePande
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03 Jun 2009, 12:07 pm

I didn't hear about the conference until it was over. Would have liked to participate, but then again, I wouldn't have the time for it.

I heard about an aspie singer who performed there, Maja Toudal, and found two of her songs on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xbPA3XVPaA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT_wVTBKohI

Completely beautiful! :D

There was also an interesting interview with her from Danish TV2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GJH4GPS48E

Translation here:

http://zhadu.dk/Maja-Toudal-Interview.html



CanyonWind
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03 Jun 2009, 12:44 pm

There's a serious violation of wrongplanet's Terms of Service happening here.

Wrongplanet's Terms of Service forbid both sexism and "homophobia, etc."

Forbidding hate speech based on sexual orientation would be a meaningless farce if it only protected one group. It would be the same as defining racism to only include prejudice against Asians and freely allowing hate campaigns against all other races.

It's clear that there's a very significant number of female aspies.

It's clear that there's a very significant number of homosexual aspies.

Female aspies and homosexual aspies are involved in relationships at least as often as heterosexual male aspies. Probably more often.

Have the anti-aspie groups that Tony Attwood supports ever promoted prejudice and discrimination against female aspies and homosexual aspies? Exactly when?

Nobody in their right mind would suggest that bad behavior is only committed by heterosexual males. Tony Atwood is actively supporting hate crimes against aspies based on gender and sexual orientation.

The groups supporting discrimination and prejudice against aspies that Tony Attwood supports would have far less influence and capacity to do harm if it were not for the celebrity endorsement of Tony Attwood. A strong, unambiguous, and ongoing condemnation of anti-aspie groups from Tony Attwood would greatly reduce their influence and reduce the harm they are doing to aspies and their innocent children.

Tony Attwood is not an innocent bystander. He is an active supporter and facilitator of hate crimes against aspies and their children based entirely on the aspie's gender and sexual orientation.

Any endorsement of Tony Attwood is a clear and obvious violation of wrongplanet's Terms of Service.

Unless the powers that be on wrongplanet would like to admit that the Terms of Service are a meaningless farce determined only by the whims of current fashion.


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gbollard
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03 Jun 2009, 8:00 pm

Jurij wrote:
Thanks for all the cool reply's! :D

It just irritates me a lot, that I can't find a single person who is an expert in AS. I was really exsited when Tony Attwood came to Denmark, because I thought that he knew a lot about it. But no, he is just like everyone in Denmark who works with people who has AS, they treat them like they were children, and they see the diagnosis not the person. Is there anyone out there who knows how an AS thinks and has a respect the people having AS.

And is Tony Attwoods book the best book out there?

This is stupid! Why aren't there any AS people who study AS? :?


1. There are people who understand AS... they're called Aspies. We study it all our lives, consciously or unconsciously.
You know what you are like. You don't need anyone else to tell you.

2. Every aspie is different because of commorbities, upbriing and various other religious and socio-economic conditions.
There is no right or wrong.

3. Tony Attwood's book is good. Like all psychology books it's a mass of sweeping statements and generalisations based on his experiences and learning of OBSERVABLE factors, not necessarily motivational factors, of Aspies. He's getting a lot of information and awareness out there but I doubt that even he would say that it's perfect.


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03 Jun 2009, 8:19 pm

CanyonWind wrote:
There's a serious violation of wrongplanet's Terms of Service happening here.

Wrongplanet's Terms of Service forbid both sexism and "homophobia, etc."

Forbidding hate speech based on sexual orientation would be a meaningless farce if it only protected one group. It would be the same as defining racism to only include prejudice against Asians and freely allowing hate campaigns against all other races.

It's clear that there's a very significant number of female aspies.

It's clear that there's a very significant number of homosexual aspies.

Female aspies and homosexual aspies are involved in relationships at least as often as heterosexual male aspies. Probably more often.

Have the anti-aspie groups that Tony Attwood supports ever promoted prejudice and discrimination against female aspies and homosexual aspies? Exactly when?

Nobody in their right mind would suggest that bad behavior is only committed by heterosexual males. Tony Atwood is actively supporting hate crimes against aspies based on gender and sexual orientation.

The groups supporting discrimination and prejudice against aspies that Tony Attwood supports would have far less influence and capacity to do harm if it were not for the celebrity endorsement of Tony Attwood. A strong, unambiguous, and ongoing condemnation of anti-aspie groups from Tony Attwood would greatly reduce their influence and reduce the harm they are doing to aspies and their innocent children.

Tony Attwood is not an innocent bystander. He is an active supporter and facilitator of hate crimes against aspies and their children based entirely on the aspie's gender and sexual orientation.

Any endorsement of Tony Attwood is a clear and obvious violation of wrongplanet's Terms of Service.

Unless the powers that be on wrongplanet would like to admit that the Terms of Service are a meaningless farce determined only by the whims of current fashion.


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Jurij
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04 Jun 2009, 2:47 am

AnnePande wrote:
I didn't hear about the conference until it was over. Would have liked to participate, but then again, I wouldn't have the time for it.

I heard about an aspie singer who performed there, Maja Toudal, and found two of her songs on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xbPA3XVPaA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT_wVTBKohI

Completely beautiful! :D

There was also an interesting interview with her from Danish TV2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GJH4GPS48E

Translation here:

http://zhadu.dk/Maja-Toudal-Interview.html


Yeah... She was a good singer and had a good personality too and was really clever. But weird that she is walking around with a psychologist? It does not seem as she needs one, and it must bee really expensive to have one you can call whenever you want.


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Jurij
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04 Jun 2009, 2:52 am

gbollard wrote:
Jurij wrote:
Thanks for all the cool reply's! :D

It just irritates me a lot, that I can't find a single person who is an expert in AS. I was really exsited when Tony Attwood came to Denmark, because I thought that he knew a lot about it. But no, he is just like everyone in Denmark who works with people who has AS, they treat them like they were children, and they see the diagnosis not the person. Is there anyone out there who knows how an AS thinks and has a respect the people having AS.

And is Tony Attwoods book the best book out there?

This is stupid! Why aren't there any AS people who study AS? :?


1. There are people who understand AS... they're called Aspies. We study it all our lives, consciously or unconsciously.
You know what you are like. You don't need anyone else to tell you.

2. Every aspie is different because of commorbities, upbriing and various other religious and socio-economic conditions.
There is no right or wrong.

3. Tony Attwood's book is good. Like all psychology books it's a mass of sweeping statements and generalisations based on his experiences and learning of OBSERVABLE factors, not necessarily motivational factors, of Aspies. He's getting a lot of information and awareness out there but I doubt that even he would say that it's perfect.


I am looking for a book written by an Aspie. And I know a lot of Aspies who don't know basic stuff about life even though they say that they know a lot. It's is still harder for us to get a good job and good friends. So we need to know some basic stuff about how our and NT brain works. If I meed an Aspie who is suffering in life or just don't get a lot of stuff, which book should I recommend to him/her.


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04 Jun 2009, 3:11 am

Sophist wrote:
If there is truth to higher divorce rates or unhealthier relationships, maybe it's more down to autistic men not finding the RIGHT kind of mates. Any marriage is bound to be an unhappy one if the partners are mismatched.

I completely agree. I'm on my third marriage, and have found the perfect (NT) partner FOR ME. He'd probably be too "gentle" for a go-get-em, career-minded NT woman (to pick one personality type, not to make a sweeping generalization about NT women), but he's just what I need in order to feel safe and loved. I don't know what it is about me that he loves, and perhaps he could have found a better fit with someone else, but he understands me well and seems to be happy with me. He does say that my honesty is a crucial trait to him, and my intelligence is nice, too (we're both technical types).

Finding a good personality fit is crucial, I think. That can be similar traits or, conversely, complementary ones. I'm sure it's different for everyone. I don't think I'd do well in an Aspie-Aspie relationship, but it would so depend on the particular person, it's really hard to generalize like that.


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04 Jun 2009, 4:26 am

I think Attwood does a lot of valuable work but we need to recognize all people have their limitations. I first noticed this weakness in him when I saw a photograph of a couple on his homepage where he was AS and she was NT and she had written a book about their relationship and Attwood recommended it and it was obvious from the picture that the man was being taken for a ride. I don't think she was abusive, she just wanted to run things and she couldn't have done that with a man who was able to get by on his own.

A lot of times what autism does is bring problems to the surface and make it impossible to ignore them, and then instead of appreciating its ability to identify a problem and make it possible to address it, people blame it for the problem's existence. If people don't have the strength or the time or the selfesteem to confront their own selves they like to covertly and subconsciously (or more rarely aggressively) blame vulnerable groups or individuals. This happens in families and in nations. They even seek out people they can blame (some of the most emotionally abusive and unstable people I've met have been social workers) so they won't have to work on themselves.

So some NT women who are in relationships with autistic men have this profile. But many don't. And if autistic men get the sharp end of the stick in this case, it's only because they get 90% of the attention and publicity that autism receives. Anybody who spends a while on WP comes across autistic women who are in abusive relationships they can't get out of.

Attwood like all of us lives in a very sexist society and I think he's probably trying to not be a part of that by giving the women he meets room to speak, he seems to take NT women seriously just like he makes a point of taking AS women seriously. Maybe he can't get the balance right yet so it ends up being at the expense of AS men sometimes but I appreciate that he's working on it and I wish him further challenges, efforts, insights and breakthroughs in the future.



mosto
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04 Jun 2009, 4:29 am

Yes, I was very frustrated when I read Tony Attwood's book, Aspergers Syndrome or Aspergers Marriage it says something like "some males with Aspergers think that a husband should be the dominant in the relationship and that wives should obey them...."



AnnePande
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04 Jun 2009, 7:15 am

Jurij wrote:
Yeah... She was a good singer and had a good personality too and was really clever. But weird that she is walking around with a psychologist? It does not seem as she needs one, and it must bee really expensive to have one you can call whenever you want.


I think it was only in special situations she brought her psychologist. Don't know how frequent it was. But it might seem that she didn't need one in some situations but not in others?

If the psychologist was from the psychiatry or the commune, it wouldn't be expensive I guess.

BTW about finding experts on AS, have you tried to contact Aspergerforeningen or Landsforeningen Autisme?

www.aspergerforeningen.dk

www.autismeforening.dk .

I have never had contact with them, but think they have some good homepages (and don't think they sound like some that would talk to us like we were kids, btw).
Don't know which possibilities for help there are where you live. But I guess you can find it on the pages (if you haven't seen these possibilities already).



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04 Jun 2009, 8:42 am

AnnePande wrote:
Jurij wrote:
Yeah... She was a good singer and had a good personality too and was really clever. But weird that she is walking around with a psychologist? It does not seem as she needs one, and it must bee really expensive to have one you can call whenever you want.


I think it was only in special situations she brought her psychologist. Don't know how frequent it was. But it might seem that she didn't need one in some situations but not in others?

If the psychologist was from the psychiatry or the commune, it wouldn't be expensive I guess.

BTW about finding experts on AS, have you tried to contact Aspergerforeningen or Landsforeningen Autisme?

www.aspergerforeningen.dk

www.autismeforening.dk .

I have never had contact with them, but think they have some good homepages (and don't think they sound like some that would talk to us like we were kids, btw).
Don't know which possibilities for help there are where you live. But I guess you can find it on the pages (if you haven't seen these possibilities already).


I have been to meetings in www.aspergerforeningen.dk and am a member my self, and it is for people who has AS and depression or social problems off course they know something but they have a lot to learn themselves. I just found out that in Denmark the knowledge in autism is nearly nonexistent. Thats why I was searching for people outside the country. But I guess there are someone who knows a lot about helping people, but they are just not that popular because they are not mainstream.

And in the places I have been AS people are considered stupid and handicapped. Because usually people who seek help are that way, so many NT's who work with AS people think that ALL AS people are like that. :?


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04 Jun 2009, 3:15 pm

Jurij wrote:
Thanks for all the cool reply's! :D

It just irritates me a lot, that I can't find a single person who is an expert in AS. I was really exsited when Tony Attwood came to Denmark, because I thought that he knew a lot about it. But no, he is just like everyone in Denmark who works with people who has AS, they treat them like they were children, and they see the diagnosis not the person. Is there anyone out there who knows how an AS thinks and has a respect the people having AS.

And is Tony Attwoods book the best book out there?

This is stupid! Why aren't there any AS people who study AS? :?


I've never attended any of Dr. Attwood's seminars, so I can't say about him from personal experience except from a few brief email correspondences (not enough to form an opinion).

However, I did attend two seminars by a psycholgist by the name of Dr. John Ortiz. He runs the Asperger's Institute in Pennsylvania and is heavily involved in Psychomusicology. His nephew is AS and Dr. Ortiz is pretty eccentric himself. But he's an incredibly warm and compassionate man and is more the type who idolizes the quirks and talents of autistics. He also works with them still (in group therapies) despite his busy schedule. He recently published a book, The Myriad Gifts of Asperger's Syndrome. It's not the greatest book (I don't think he has a considerable talent in writing compared to his love of music, heh) but the focus is precisely what he preaches in his seminars. I bought the book anyways, just to support him.

If anyone has an opportunity to attend any of his seminars, I highly recommend him. :)

Saja wrote:
Sophist wrote:
If there is truth to higher divorce rates or unhealthier relationships, maybe it's more down to autistic men not finding the RIGHT kind of mates. Any marriage is bound to be an unhappy one if the partners are mismatched.


I completely agree. I'm on my third marriage, and have found the perfect (NT) partner FOR ME. He'd probably be too "gentle" for a go-get-em, career-minded NT woman (to pick one personality type, not to make a sweeping generalization about NT women), but he's just what I need in order to feel safe and loved. I don't know what it is about me that he loves, and perhaps he could have found a better fit with someone else, but he understands me well and seems to be happy with me. He does say that my honesty is a crucial trait to him, and my intelligence is nice, too (we're both technical types).

Finding a good personality fit is crucial, I think. That can be similar traits or, conversely, complementary ones. I'm sure it's different for everyone. I don't think I'd do well in an Aspie-Aspie relationship, but it would so depend on the particular person, it's really hard to generalize like that.


There are certainly plenty of aspies I would have a very hard time getting along with, so with my partner the autism is part of it but it's him specifically, his unique personality. Even though I'm more outgoing than he is, we actually have a considerable amount in common as far as personality characteristics and quirks.

But I've definitely known other aspies who, being around them, is like nails on a chalkboard. :? I've definitely discovered that just because a person is autistic, that doesn't mean I'm gonna get along with them. :lol: And actually, I've found that when it comes to auties, I'm more prone to either REALLY like a person or REALLY hate a person and not much else in between; I think perhaps because we seem more prone to having really strong personalities so it's more hit or miss.


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AnnePande
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05 Jun 2009, 6:43 am

Jurij wrote:

I have been to meetings in www.aspergerforeningen.dk and am a member my self, and it is for people who has AS and depression or social problems off course they know something but they have a lot to learn themselves. I just found out that in Denmark the knowledge in autism is nearly nonexistent. Thats why I was searching for people outside the country. But I guess there are someone who knows a lot about helping people, but they are just not that popular because they are not mainstream.

And in the places I have been AS people are considered stupid and handicapped. Because usually people who seek help are that way, so many NT's who work with AS people think that ALL AS people are like that. :?


I don't know what there is to find in the countries around Denmark. But good luck in your search. :)

I think it's true that there are many in Denmark that don't know a lot about autism, or especially Asperger's (it's still a quite new diagnosis).
When I got diagnosed myself nearly 2 years ago, I had to do a lot of work myself first... after being at the psychiatric hospital with a depression, I talked to a psychologist in the local psychiatry about the fact that the doctors had written something in my papers about me having "difficulties" of special kinds or some "developmental disorder", and that my parents guessed I had Asperger's (didn't know what that was though, but found out on the net, especially here at WP. :D ) The psychologist didn't believe I had AS and asked me if I had special interests (I didn't know I said, because I was unsure how to define a "special" interest), and if I could read facial expressions (I answered yes to that). From those 2 questions he said he was sure I didn't have it. :!:
But I looked even more on the net and made a list over the traits I could recognise in myself (it became a list of about 20 points, one of which was 14 different kinds of stimming), and I showed him my list and he changed his mind and said there was something to look at... and I was diagnosed some months after.
But I hadn't if I hadn't done that work on beforehand... if I just had believed him at first, I still could go around undiagnosed.



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05 Jun 2009, 6:53 am

Jurij wrote:
gbollard wrote:
Jurij wrote:
Thanks for all the cool reply's! :D

It just irritates me a lot, that I can't find a single person who is an expert in AS. I was really exsited when Tony Attwood came to Denmark, because I thought that he knew a lot about it. But no, he is just like everyone in Denmark who works with people who has AS, they treat them like they were children, and they see the diagnosis not the person. Is there anyone out there who knows how an AS thinks and has a respect the people having AS.

And is Tony Attwoods book the best book out there?

This is stupid! Why aren't there any AS people who study AS? :?


1. There are people who understand AS... they're called Aspies. We study it all our lives, consciously or unconsciously.
You know what you are like. You don't need anyone else to tell you.

2. Every aspie is different because of commorbities, upbriing and various other religious and socio-economic conditions.
There is no right or wrong.

3. Tony Attwood's book is good. Like all psychology books it's a mass of sweeping statements and generalisations based on his experiences and learning of OBSERVABLE factors, not necessarily motivational factors, of Aspies. He's getting a lot of information and awareness out there but I doubt that even he would say that it's perfect.


I am looking for a book written by an Aspie. And I know a lot of Aspies who don't know basic stuff about life even though they say that they know a lot. It's is still harder for us to get a good job and good friends. So we need to know some basic stuff about how our and NT brain works. If I meed an Aspie who is suffering in life or just don't get a lot of stuff, which book should I recommend to him/her.


I can recommend a good body language book.

I am in a position where I could choose to specialize in AS (I am beginning to study a psychology degree and I plan to do masters and a phd), but I'm not sure whether I want to or not simply because I don't want AS to become my whole life. I think maybe other aspies who could have chosen that path might feel the same way; when you're studying something in uni as well as thinking about it in day to day life, it can become too much.


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08 Jun 2009, 11:10 am

Jurij wrote:
I have just been to a lecture by Tony Attwood in Denmark. It was a 2 days lecture, and the first day was REALLY great. But the second day was bad, and with a lot of prejudice against the males with AS. So I was wondering why he travels the world and teaches everyone about AS, when a person with AS could do it better than him? I know I could do a better job, because I can explain the things better and I have more insight. I know a lot of AS people are psychology professors, so why are they not making lectures about AS?

The numbers he showed: 98% of women who are with an AS man have worse psychological health and 92% said they had worse physical health compared to when they were single. And he made it sound like that an AS man is some the worst kind of person you can be in a relationship with. Maybe we are?


He said all that? hmmm.... he might be more receptive to my ideas than i thought :twisted:
Brisbane here i....................*stares into the horizon*.................................*sighs*........................................... go


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09 Jun 2009, 8:01 am

Jurij wrote:
The numbers he showed: 98% of women who are with an AS man have worse psychological health and 92% said they had worse physical health compared to when they were single. And he made it sound like that an AS man is some the worst kind of person you can be in a relationship with. Maybe we are?


The stories behind those numbers are where it gets interesting. And even more interesing are the numbers *not* being selected for presentation. Correlations most definitely do NOT mean causes. Maybe the psychology unhealthy NT women are increasing the AS symptoms in men?

TBH, 98% sounds way off, it really sets the alarm bells ringing! So NT women with worse psychological health get involved with AS men? Maybe because NT men aren't so desparate, daft or clueless at reading the signs, to get involved with someone with psychological problems in the first place?

Were these women impartially 'psychologically profiled' before they met an AS man, then their psycholigical health measured over time? I highly doubt it. The figures are based purely on anecdotal stories told in hindsight, there appears to be NO credible research behind any of it.

Also, how many AS women have suffered terribly in relationships with NT men? There are examples throughout WP.
I just don't see a world of unbridled bliss in NT/NT relationships, either.

There is an agenda behind their selection of stats. I'm wondering if it isn't because these NT woman are more gullable and easy to lure into money making 'healing' scams. They fall head-over-heels for glossy presentation telling them exactly what they want to hear, and not having to engage in 'painful truth discernment'.

Much money (and prestige) in AS seems to come from promising unproven, untested 'therapies' to parents worried about their kids. Tapping into the partners of AS men would seem another source to exploit.

BTW I *do* fully expect psychological problems in NT partners of AS men to be somewhat higher than partners of NT men. My speculation is that the psychological problems were there before, and to an extent explain *why* they got involved with an AS man. And not such a huge level as 98%! !


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