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Crassus
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12 Jun 2009, 1:08 am

If my instances don't relate to your argument then you are simply pulling my statements out of context. I was specifically involved in a discussion with people in which I suggested what amounts to an addendum to what you just stated. If a non professional demonstrates to you a competency in knowledge of underlying factors and how to apply that knowledge to assess someone, there is no reason to discount them in favor of an authority automatically. THAT is what makes it an appeal to authority within the context of the larger thread.

The context of my argument throughout all of these pages has been this. I have re stated it multiple times and people who have not been following the entire thread are coming in late with no understanding of the context, admitting they have not made any effort to make themselves aware of the context, but still feeling that they should address pieces of my argument anyways.



Danielismyname
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12 Jun 2009, 1:26 am

Went back. Didn't see any specific instances in our conversation of professional error, actually; argument still applies to our quoting, which means we agree with one another in conclusion.

Anecdotes and info [to no one in particular],

I've personally corrected professionals on numerous occasions, GPs with medication names and their uses, psychos/psychics on definitions, and they've all conceded that they were in error, which is professional. There's nothing wrong with doing this, and if they don't take it in a professional manner, then that's telling of them; if your correction is wrong [to them], ask them why they think so, and they'll probably be able to pull their evidence up from a textbook in their office or something on their computer.

If you feel that a professional is wrong with a conclusion (for example, you self-diagnosed with a specific ASD, and they said you didn't have it), ask them for their reason, and then do research via the text/textbooks they read, and you can then come to a valid picture.



flamingshorts
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12 Jun 2009, 1:28 am

The motto of self-diagnosis, "No doctor left behind.".



Dilemma
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12 Jun 2009, 4:01 am

Quote:
The motto of self-diagnosis, "No doctor left behind.".

I don't get it? Could you explain?


I think both sides of the fence have valid points (self diagnosis vs. professional diagnosis) but i still don't believe in genuine self diagnoses. I can be difficult to know the accuracy of either from the outside, but noone knows yourself better than you and those closest to you.



Sora
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12 Jun 2009, 4:45 am

Guess I'm okay with all changes to the DSM-V.

Let the ICD-10 and ICD-11 keep AS and all is fine (for those who use the ICD-10 in which there is no HFA anyway).

I'm diagnosed by use of the ICD-10, the DSM-IV-TR/DSM-V doesn't affect my thankfully.


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outlier
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12 Jun 2009, 6:59 am

Crassus wrote:
yesplease wrote:
Crassus wrote:
The main criticism leveled at the asperger designation is related to the fact that, if you follow the criteria strictly, it is unlikely if not impossible to diagnose someone as having Asperger Syndrome.
What criteria were unlikely to be met given a strict interpretation and what does a strict interpretation entail?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l15514241h4p3602/


For completeness, another study indicated that only 23% of their subjects would be reassigned a diagnosis of autism:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n47274528t74l6g6/


EDIT: Also see Hippler, K., & Klicpera, C. (2003). Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London, 358, 291–301



Last edited by outlier on 12 Jun 2009, 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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12 Jun 2009, 7:28 am

Crassus wrote:
This is getting plain ridiculous. The argument that has been put forward by Wing for nearly 30 years is that Autism is Autism is Autism, PDD is PDD, they are ONE, SINGULAR medical condition that has a RANGE of impacts on individuals relating to the individual. She based this argument on the study of the work of Kanner and Asperger which was published in 1943 and 1944, and the inclusion of studies of the work of Emanuel Miller who was a third phychiatrist in the same time frame as Kanner and Asperger who recognized the same autistic traits in children and adults supports this view as well.

fMRI and EEG studies have continued to support this view. A major criticism of the DSM criteria introduced in version IV in 1994 was that, strictly followed, an individual should ALWAYS be diagnosed with autism and not asperger because asperger syndrome requires the individual meet the description of autism first, and no further diagnosis beyond that is useful or necessary. This is not MY argument, this is the driving argument behind the next set of changes expected to be incorporated into DSM V. If you have access to a medical lit search, I could suggest six different articles referenced in support of this idea and the years they were published range from 1995 to 2001.

The argument that has been put forward by Wing and colleagues, which I agree with based on my understanding of the evidence as presented, is that this continued separation has been a prime motivating factor in the ongoing misunderstanding of what Autism is and what it means to those diagnosed as within the spectrum. Wing suggests that the first step to resolving some of these problems is to recognize that which is medically true and always has been, that autism is one medical condition with a spectrum representing the range of possible patient outcomes.

If clinicians refuse to recognize a medical fact, then as the ones that live and breathe that medical fact we have a responsibilty to self-advocate and self-diagnosis in a proper manner. If politics are holding back proper medical treatment, we can establish good science practices on our own and encourage professionals to pull their heads out of the sand and catch up with modern knowledge. Recent studies suggest there are more than five hundred thousand children with autism in the united states, and there are even more adults. They have a clear, medically demonstrated physiological condition that causes extreme stress throughout their lives because they might appear outwardly intelligent but they have a language disorder that leads to confusions in communication without either party being aware.

We have identified useful ways to help these individuals cope, but that outward intelligence continues to result in disenfranchisement because it is assumed they should know better and are just being lazy. People get all bent out of shape because they think people are self-diagnosing with Autism all willy-nilly but the studies suggest a rate in my country of 1 in 150 being born autistic if not more. The average class size in our schools is about 35 kids, meaning in every 5 classrooms in america, there is one autistic child. Most of those children are being told they are just normal kids who have a discipline problem. That they are just lazy, inconsiderate, have no empathy, that they are jerks. Autistic individuals have likely been told these things since the first one was born. There was a time when you could just move away from society when it became too much, but where do you go today? The system is too large for us to just go hide from, so we have to take a stand and be recognized as humans with human rights like any other.


This makes a lot of sense to me. It always appears like the Autism diagnosis describes the underlying condition, whereas the Aspergers diagnosis describes a limited set of outward expressions of the internal condition (which is Autism). Of course, I am no expert, but purely from reading, personal understanding, and observation alone, it appears this way to me.


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fiddlerpianist
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12 Jun 2009, 8:41 am

sunshower wrote:
It always appears like the Autism diagnosis describes the underlying condition, whereas the Aspergers diagnosis describes a limited set of outward expressions of the internal condition (which is Autism). Of course, I am no expert, but purely from reading, personal understanding, and observation alone, it appears this way to me.

So, mostly for my own curiosity, is the idea that Asperger's is a right-brain deficiency and autism a left-brained deficiency a misnomer? I've heard that thrown around quite a bit.


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pluto
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12 Jun 2009, 3:27 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
Crassus wrote:
Saying it is a given because they are a Professional is explicitly an appeal to authority, you are appealing to the authority of the profession to support the argument that the profession is clearly more of an authority.


Appeal to authority is: You don't have AS because you don't have {some symptom that isn't a part of the disorder}, and if you question me, you're wrong because I'm the expert!

An analogy, you would assume that a pilot who has his piloting license will be qualified to fly the planes he is approved to fly? It's a given, as probability stipulates that the pilot with the qualifications will know how to fly that which he is qualified for. We rely on experts to know more than "us" in their field, for we can't know everything and we don't go through the training they do.

I'd much rather a person qualified to fly fly me somewhere than someone who claims to know how to fly; probability, you see? Hence, a given.

(Naturally, nothing is certain. And people need to prove that they are experts in their field if they state they are.)

O, and yes, you can say that my analogy is a fallacy, but it only is without questioning the validity of someone's expertise; one should always question the claims people make.


I appreciate the point you're making with the analogy Daniel,but I think you may be endowing
doctors with more skill than they possess,or indeed they require.If it was a surgeon being likened to a pilot that would be fair enough,but it doesn't need a surgeon to simply make a diagnosis.
I'd say that rather than equating them with pilots,doctors are more like Customs officers,who
survey the passengers looking for signs of anything untoward and then check their baggage
for contents that don't comply with regulations.Although a doctor has to have a certain degree
of knowledge,intuition and dedication there isn't the same 'skill' involved as piloting.
Earlier in the thread I gave an alternative analogy - do we need qualified historians to validate
our own personal history ?


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12 Jun 2009, 9:54 pm

Crassus wrote:
yesplease: The point of the study I linked and the 5 other studies it makes reference to in the abstract is that the diagnostic criteria creates a divide based on criteria that does not fit the progression of actual patients, and it has lead to a situation where no two doctors are applying the criteria in the same way, because they are all actually autistic individuals and there is no clinical basis for an Asperger Syndrome designation.
There is a clinical basis for Asperger's, it's just based on a diagnosis after age three, which is arguably not very useful, but there's certainly a clinical basis using the DSM-IV criteria, barring of course children younger than three who are diagnosed, or those who are diagnosed using video tapes of their behavior prior to the age of three.

Crassus wrote:
What stage they are at in development at the time they are first diagnosed is what is setting the tone for how far they are expected to develop because it is preventing them from being given proper support if they are seen as "too high functioning".
It looks like the opposite is also the case, since those who may be considered to have Apserger's if they were diagnosed past age three are now considered autistic, and as such treatment may vary. We can have those who are seen as too high functioning not get the correct support, and those who are in reality high functioning as per the common usage not get the correct support.

Crassus wrote:
What special factor are you saying changes this if you only look at a group that was diagnosed after the age of three?

DSM-IV wrote:
B.
Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years: (1) social interaction, (2) language as used in social communication, or (3) symbolic or imaginative play.


If an individual is diagnosed after they are three, barring of course having and using video taped recordings of their behavior when at three or younger for diagnosis, then they will almost certainly not be considered autistic, since they didn't meet all the diagnostic criteria for autism, but will probably be considered to have Asperger's, regardless of whether or not they meet the second part of section A. of the Autism diagnostic criteria.