Define "Empathy"

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I think you have made a very good point, Daniel. But it still admits to some people feeling too much. Yes. I agree that the shutting down is due to inability to process incoming data that is overwhelming, especially if the data is strange, new or comes as a shock to the system, as in the unexpected death of a loved one.



Another good point. Some people don't care and others do, of course, true and attributable to both typical and non-typical brain functioning, sometimes pathologically so. But my point is (I think) how do we - the observer - tell the difference? Some people who care very much appear not to care at all, and then again, some people who do not care at all, appear to care very much. It's very confusing and that's why I say, we, as individuals, can only accurately measure our own empathy and are limited to guessing or assuming the level of empathy in or of others.

Could you clarify what you mean by "the brain isn't meant to process it this way"? All brains? Certain brains?

Last edited by cosmiccat on 08 Aug 2009, 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Also, before I forget, there was this thread on empathy before too...

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt101398.html

I think that empathy must be a spectrum in itself.

Sometimes, just going ... "ohhh" and giving a sad look is considered empathy while other times you're expected to "feel the pain" of the other person, not just react to it.

It seems to vary from one situation to another - and changes considerably depending upon the depth of your relationship.

One weird thing is that I empathise better with strangers than those around me.

Actually we are, it just that different between each egg and peas is very fine. So most people would think they are the same and they transmit that thought into what a human should be in their mind, so most NT just think everyone should be like themselves and if not they don't accept them to various degree, so to them we are like a white peas in a can of green peas.


Just a way I thought to see it. Now if it make sense to you that it other thing.

Granted my experience is limited, but we do agree on at least one thing -- how people feel and show empathy is wildly different.

And I don't think anyone can make an 'across the board' statement about how people feel and respond.

When my nephew with AS was little, he never understood a raised voice. That had zero impact on him - he didn't 'read' that as anger or frustration or disapproval. And if you gave him a very light tap on the hand to signal "Don't grab my glasses" he howled like you'd just beaten him with a belt. But we figured out that he did understand a frown - he 'got it' if you showed an angry face.

I think we're all -- AS or not -- different in how we read and respond to and show empathy.

All brains.

"Normal" brains automatically and innately deduce and predict [via understanding body language] the emotional state of others. No, I'm not even bother going to list the amount of emotional states and nonverbal cues a single person can show with the barest amount of emotion (lets just say "content"), as it's hundreds upon hundreds of major and minor manifestations, multiplied by thousands upon thousands of possible changes.

Now, image lacking this automatic ability, and you have to attempt to figure it out via intelligence only; one person will be near impossible for someone with AS in person, and now throw in a group of people. Total mental shutdown.

It's an equation that no human brain can compute (the smartest person with AS won't be much better than the person with an average level of intelligence).

"We", as a species developed this automatic ability, as after all, "we" are a social species. Now, you have people who're abnormal and lack this ability.... Enter "us".

It's a fairly good analogy and in keeping with my own beliefs that we're "designed" different by nature. Aspies have a different function to fulfil.

I think empathy is feeling the same thing as others, catching their emotion by looking at them, or being with them. Daniels example before, of someone feeling something when a womans child is murdered.. if I was with someone I wouldnt feel what the woman was feeling, I would instead feel rage that someone had done that to a child, and mother. But I wouldnt catch someone's emotions. I would have my own response which is separate from them. So I feel I have a sort of partial empathy. I also remember having less empathy as a child as I had had less experiences to build up a sort of "empathy complex" needed to reason how I would feel about things.

I've been wondering about that. I always thought it was feeling the same thing as others too, but then when I think about it, nobody can do that. Feeling FOR someone is sympathy, so that doesn't work right either. If empathy is being able to put yourself in someone's shoes and not having to share their emotions but get your own reaction, you can do that without feeling sympathy and without having to have their same emotions. I think most Aspies are capable of that.

I also think some people think their empathy is accurate, which I call a false sense of empathy, when they think they are feeling exactly what the other person is feeling. It's like they expect your reaction to be like their's because of their empathy, and they judge you if you don't react similar.

It's funny, but it was first when I heard about AS and the description of our (supposed) lack of empathy, that I saw the definition of empathy as "feeling the same as another". I had never, ever seen that definition before. And suddenly everybody (or many) seems to use it. Weird.

On the subject of how NTs and aspies just don't get each other's attempts to ask for or give empathy, it sort of reminds me of how living in France and learning new cultural expectations feels to me as an American. I'd like to say that AS is just another human culture, but, the problem with things like empathy and other forms of communication that rely on body language, facial expressions, theory of mind and so on is that what the "natives" of the NT world share is some universally held social cues. But as far as I can tell, there is no universal, "culturally" accepted way for ALL aspies to use body language, facial expressions and ideas about theory of mind. Thus, body language from or to an aspie is pretty much useless as far as I can see. May I make my point by way of a real-world exceptional case of the use of body language:

There is a tribe in New Guinea that some anthropologists decided to study, specifically interested in all the different ways they communicated their ideas and feelings to one another through body language and gestures. One interesting thing they found was that when any of these tribesman wanted to indicate "yes" with a nod of the head, he would do the opposite as those of us in the Western world do. That is, he'd shake his head from side-to-side, like how we say, "no". And conversely, he'd shake his head up and down to indicate, "no"! Now, that is very confusing if you don't have the information that tells you to switch the meanings of those two common human gestures, and invariably, those who were exposed to this other form of universally understood body language would feel that there was a breakdown in communication. Without effective communication, any attempts at either showing or receiving empathy are lost.

To equate the N. Guinea study to the trouble aspies and NTs encounter when trying to communicate, or when each tries to pick up on what the other is feeling, imagine if every time you went in public you knew ahead of time that every single person was going to have a different gesture to signify "yes" or "no". Say, the way I say "yes" with my body is to shrug my shoulders? Wouldn't that confuse most of you? And just imagine if the gesture was never consistent from one person to the next. Egad! This is the reason why some NTs like me are so desperate to "learn" Aspergian (which does not exist, because no two aspies use their body language in identical ways), and in the absence of one common Aspergian body language, we NTs often attempt to teach aspies our own.

Footnote: It's worth noting that for all the attempts some NTs like me make to try to include aspies in an understanding of the NT commonly held body language, we are often met with resistance and/or disinterest from the aspies around us. It feels like I extend the hand of mutual understanding to my husband and he just doesn't care to try to understand the gesture... imagine that!

Feyhera

Many Aspies, like myself, want to learn this body language, but I'm discovering it's an art more than a science because like us Aspies, no two NTs are alike. I figure people out pretty well now a days (I still have my failures) from analyzing their behavior and actions. But I want to learn body language and non verbal cues so that I can relay those. One problem is that I think a lot of what goes on is with the eyes, and it's unique to humans (as opposed to other animals). A lot of it seems to happen so natural like a reflex that it's almost impossible for us to recreate if we tried. I can't make my pupils dialate and stuff like that, and I think a lot of it is that if we were to find a science behind it.

Yeah, the physical dynamics, like dilating pupils, is pretty impossible to simulate. And yes, we do pick up on those sorts of things unconsciously. So, I'm wondering... just like my having to make up for my lack of language skills here in France by using a lot of gestures and hand signals, could the reverse be possible? That is to say, would it be too odd if aspies verbalized their feelings directly, or would that be too much of a strain? I'm just shooting in the dark here, but, if my husband said, "My heart is thumping in my chest and I feel shocked about what you just said," instead of trying to demonstrate a feeling of shock with his facial expression and eyes... could that work maybe?

It goes a lot further than that though. I did volunteer counselling phone work with some very NT women, and it was amazing to watch these super-empathic ladies. If one would cry it would set the other off. The synchronicity of eye contact and body language.. sometimes it was like watching a row of dominoes, each one setting the other off.. sort of strange perfection. Im capable of boundless sympathy but I am not able to be in the group, feeling, reacting, adding to all the feedback...

Of course I didnt get along with them, lol. Sad story for another day.

As for taking on NT body language, I just dont do that, it is too much information. I tend to focus on voice tone and it works pretty well for me, as my hearing is very, very sensitive and I pick up a lot of tiny pitches... it doesnt work so well if the person doesnt have such an expressive voice though, or if they are good liars..

I think it is helpful for aspies to try and perfect the interpretation of one type of non-verbal, as we are good at focussing on one thing.

Empathy is when you can look at a certain person who is in a certain situation feeling a certain way, and you can look at that person and feel just how they feel in a situation similar to the one they're in.

The problem is nobody believes me when I tell them things, especially if my face expressions and non verbal language state otherwise. I do with my friends, and since they know me, it's different. Like I'll always say, "That's funny" though I'm not laughing or smiling, but I do think it's funny. Same with shocking, but if I really am shocked, I'm generally speechless and when I do try to talk, I'm far from articulating well. So I just say I was shocked when talking about it afterwards. Like one of my landlords, a 35 year old male, threw a temper tantrum over some food on my floor that the one year old chewed up and spit out minutes before he walked in, and I was so shocked at his reaction, that tempter tantrum, that I just stood there for a good second dumbfounded.