How did discipline influence your personality?

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Ask another Aspie who's studied the topic. Teach sociology, psychology, and anthropology. Play out scenarios in different situations so that we can get the patterns. There's plenty of ways.

Actually, for pattern-oriented autistics, learning the patterns and understanding that these patterns are the way NTs communicate seems to be a good way. You just have to be careful that you are only following the patterns when they are useful, rather than following them at the expense of real communication.

I learned about people by studying them theoretically, and then gradually applying things to real life. I also applied my ability to learn languages to the learning of idiom, slang, and casual speech.

I think the things that really got to me in reading Keypearl's summary of the psychiatrist's advice on the parenting board were (1) to give the direction only once, never repeat, and (2) the assumption that the child's choices are likely to be driven by what is easy and gains them social admiration. Sorry if I've summarized either wrong; Keypearl can clarify; its just what I took out of it the first time.

Unanswered are if transition time is allowed for compliance after the single direction, if the direction is to be given in such a way that the giver will know the child registered it (generally face to face, single focus, for a 5 year old), and the question of being AS precise in the direction ("Come here right now" v. "come here," which can be accurately complied with tomorrow in an AS child's view).

The psychiatrist also told keypearl not to assume the child is stupid, which is correct, in telling heypearl not to repeat requests. But there is a huge difference between being stupid and actually understanding a direction, particularly because we parents often make requests in haste, and can seriously misspeak. Where is the room to fix and correct that?

I guess I was lucky because my parents had always known I was different and mom had to change her parenting style, learn to be patient and she even took classes. My mom took what it took to work with me by giving me punishments that were effective. I can remember hearing her say "Because I said so" "I'm the parent" and I always hated it. I used to just do things when she tell me to not do it and not say why. So she took advantage of it by telling me to not do things she wanted me to do like "Beth don't poor out this glass of water" and she leave the room. I would get up and do it and sit back down and she come back and ask "What happened in the water that was in this cup?" and I would say "I don't know." Sounds like she had me to small things. I don't remember all this but she told me in my teens that's what she did. She said I was impulsive and lot of people with AS are but I think it's not about being impulsive, we want reasons and if you don't give it to us, we do it anyway. After all aspie kids won't listen unless they know the reason why they can't do something. I used to call people fat and couldn't understand why it was wrong. No matter how many times I was told it's rude, I still did it. Now today I know why it's wrong. Now I can explain that to my aspie child if I have one. Maybe he or she will get it and it be logical enough.

I also drove my family crazy by throwing fifty questions at them for why I can't do this, why I can't do that. Either they tell me or I don't listen.

We're still going through a version of that with my 12 year old son, because he is having trouble fitting together the values of telling the truth v. not hurting someone's feelings. Whenever he says something inappropriate what I always hear back is, "if I didn't say that, I'd be lying!" Then we go into the whole, "bite your tongue thing" which he counters with "she asked me to give my opinion, and that was my opinion!" which leaves me trying to explain the delicacy of saying what you mean without saying it and oh my that drives him nuts ... except when it serves his own purposes, which he has learned to do. It is a really, really difficult area, it seems, for AS kids, and I do NOT want the lesson he takes out of it all to be "people lie all the time," as many AS have posted. Sorry, a bit off topic, but its a really tricky skill, it seems, and I think where a child is developmentally will have a lot to do with how you need to handle it.

Of course! The dialog is still there. If he does something wrong that hasn't been forbidden yet he'll get away with an explanation and a request. But once he's familiar with the rule there's little margin for excuses. "Why did you hit your sister? Appologise and sit in that corner? No? Don't overdo it or there's no PC either! No, I'm not pointing at that chair. This one, please." And then the bigger difference from a few days ago is that we stick to the punishment, because it'd all end up in forgiveness and now he knows I mean business.



As for the social behavior we insist on a lot of social interaction with family and friends, a lot of story reading and telling that's great to underline different situations and we're attentive of his everyday life helping him recognize danger and teasing.

I got spanked and I turned out ok (as in, I'm not a juvenile delinquent/criminal) but to this day I cannot tolerate anyone even touching my ass. But spanking wasn't the worst part. It was verbal abuse of the clueless kind.

Nowadays, mother treats me like a child (though I haven't been spanked since I was like, 14), and she's especially bad about trying to talk about what I should be doing and how I should be out of the house (as in, not living at home anymore, despite the fact I can't afford to live anywhere else right now). She's terrified her and dad are going to die soon and then I'll be f***ed. This was made worse by a relative who's only 50 dying only a few weeks ago. And when I was going to school (and she still does this to the brother that still goes to school) she'll nag ceaselessly about homework, tests, test results (if the results aren't in she'll want to know how did you FEEL that you did...ugh), and "YOu shouldn't be playing games/on the computer/watching TV". And to me she said, maybe I'd be better off in a group home.

She was going on and on not long ago about how I'm in a rut, I'm going nowhere, wanted to know what I want out of life, and then made several GARBAGE assumptions. Such as "YOu're afraid that if we cure the Asperger's that you'll stop liking Transformers." I told her she's not qualified to discuss my future. She gave me a funny look and said "But I'm your MOTHER, Of COURSE I'm qualified!"

*Faceplant*

Neither of my parents cared to explain stuff. They always had the line of do as they say right now because of that story of the boy who obeyed his father quickly and unquestioningly and as a result the boy's life was saved, because if the boy had questioned and delayed he'd have been run over by a train.

Last edited by Shebakoby on 15 Jan 2010, 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My parents thought I was just a lazy good for nothing who could be punished into proper behavior. They used to take my interests away a lot and try to force other things down my throat to try and make me more normal. They took TV, Radio, Music, etc. away from me a lot as well. It always hurt that I couldn't have the things that calmed me and helped keep me sane, and of course my sister would rub my face in it. Of course, they never took anything away from her, mainly because she could simply have a temper tantrum, run to her room and slam the door and they'd give in to her. If I ever got upset in any way, I was often screamed at about having a short temper, if that makes sense.

If I'd point out her behavior to them, they'd just say "that's just the way she is" and if I'd ask why it is OK for her and wrong for me, I'd get yelled at, punished, etc. My mother once said that punishing girls was wrong, since girls are never bad, and boys are always bad. My 3 older brothers weren't treated that way, only I was. I honestly believe if my sister did the things I did, it would have been OK.

They also would try to force what she did on me, taking me away from my activities for it yet if I'd want her to do something I wanted to do and she didn't that was OK. She never had to give up one second for me, yet I had to give up whatever amount of time she chose for her. There was just too much favoritism in that house.

It has had some bad effects on me over the years. If I want to do something new, I'm actually afraid to because they often tried to sabotage me when I'd explore new interests, saying I needed to be balanced. My sister never had to give up her interests or reduce them in the name of balance, of course the only thing she was ever interested in was reading, and I guess my parents couldn't take that away from her like they took away my activities. In other words, I have a hard time getting started at things.

I have a great deal of resentment towards my parents and my siblings, mainly my sister and one of my brothers, who helped get my parents to start denying me my interests every summer when he got them on their "He has to start swimming" kick. These days, I don't have much of a relationship with any of them, which is fine with me, since they'd probably try to sabotage everything again, since in their eyes, it's only me, it's not if I'm a real person or anything like that to them.

My mother only spanked as a last resort (i.e. I was doing something dangerous and they needed to do something to get my attention quickly, never as punishment). My mother encoraged my creativity and creatiaivity. My mother has the paitence of a saint. My father tried very hard to be a good father but he was just too screwed up mentaly from the war and is always prone to rages (he describes being this way from childhood. His parents were abusive). I would have a rage or meltdown and he would threatned to punch my teeth out. He threw me into walls on several ocassions. My school teachers were the abusive ones. I was belittled all the time and when the other children bullied me I was punished for defending myself. As an adult, I can't open up to anyone and can never let my defence down.

That's another thing I didn't understand about my parents. If I ever had a meltdown, they have one too, why is it OK for them and not for me. My sister had them too, but of course, it wasn't wrong for her.

My personal view is we can respond well to clear and well explained and consistent guidelines delivered in a manner that is calm and broken down and not too "bombarding" of us. The key is "well explained," and "broken down."

For us aspies as children, it is also as much about the delivery of the guideline as it is the guideline itself.

Children with ASD's often meltdown or get very flustered and argumentative because they are being asked to process information at a pace in keeping with that of an NT brain.
Rles and limitations are beneficial to all children, ASD kids included.

But what they need is an environment where things are slowed down a little, where things are a little more calm and less combative, where directions are given in pieces and where the parent is NOT overloading the child with too much directive or discipline or information all at once.

NT parents of ASD children need to factor in HOW they deliver information, not just focus on the information itself.

How calm is your home?
How peaceful is it?
What is the noise level?
Are you attending to your AS child''s sensory needs, or are you jsut viewing the AS in terms of the visible behaviour being exhibited?
How slowly do you give disciplinary or limit setting directives to your child? It should be slow, and often it should be visual and it should NOT be long sentences of information that confuse the kid. (we aspies who are hyper verbal will talk like this ourselves, but we need slow incoming input, small chunks, not too much at once.)

We aspies have a more static mode of brain processing. We need information delivered in calm and simple terms. Kids especially need it to be broken down.

Are you using visual cards or are you just barraging your ASD kid with a bunch of verbal disciplinary directives? The latter is a nightmare for us. We cannot process this kind of communicating fast enough, especially if the deliverer has heightened emotion attached.

I would strongly suggest you look at some of Steven Gutstein's ideas about the dynamic and the static brain, and the kind of progress that can be made when parents of ASD children start to alter the home environment and slow it down and reduce the verbal, so that the ASD kid can flourish and develop and live with a bit more peace. I do not agree with everything Gutstein says, but we have introduced some elements of his RDI therapy strategies into our home (I am a mum with AS) with great results. I used to have meltdowns about four times a week if not more. Changing the way we do things in accord with some of Gutstein's suggestions has helped to reduce these to an odd occurrence! As I say, i do not agree with all of his approach,but I do know that some of it has helped me, and led to a much calmer home environment which is now helping all to live more happily and peacefully

We aspies have meltdowns quite often because some of you very good and well meaning NT people do not understand baout our different processing needs. We tantrum or meltdown because we are overwhelmed by TOO MUCH input all at onec. It is not necessarily anything to do with the content. Rather, it is how the content is delivered.

Forcing us in an autocratic style at an NT pace? That is a recipe for disaster.
Forcing in an autocratic style in itself is problematic too, in my view. It teaches a child to be a compliant rule follower but it doesn't teach them anything about self-esteem, healthy choices, maturity, the internalisation and understanding of those rules etc. It's a great way to discipline if you want a compliant follower, but in my view it doesn't lead on to the development of a wonderful and well-rounded AS human being who takes pride in themselves and goes on to live to his/her fullest potential.

You gave some really good information, Millie. Thank you

Ah, definitely. Say what you mean and do what you say. The golden rule of discipline. And NEVER deliver a threat you would be uncomfortable following through on ... oh, so many times parents come to regret something threatened in the heat of the moment!

I'm not a negotiator most of the time, but I do give my kids opportunity to challenge me and clarify - to a point. They know where that point is, its part of the pattern we've established over the years, and I state it very clearly when we're at it ("I've heard your position and I understand it, but my request stands and you need to comply without further discussion.") Moving into counting also makes it clear I've reached the end of my ability to discuss something. That one - counting - works like magic. "Put on your shoes by the count to 10 or I'm picking up you and your shoes and forcing you into the car." Neither my NT or AS child likes to be forced, so that is enough of a consequence by iteself, believe it or not. Well, it worked at age 5, anyway, when I actually was capable of doing that

I very much pick my battles, and have chosen not to fight some that other parents think are important ... that is my choice. I just find it easier to get quick and happy compliance on the things I really really need compliance on if I let go on some other stuff.

So things ARE a little more filled out than your first post in parenting suggested. I'm glad.

I am seeing some autistic traits in my 2 year old nephew. It is freaking me out. He has a horrible time with transitions multiple times a day, he has a slight speech delay, etc. He is in terrible twos, which seem to have started the day after he turned one. He is a really smart kid. I am having better luck with him alot of times than his mom and day because I understand that it is the transitions he's having problems with. One thing I've noticed is with him I have to tell him one time what to do. He responds better if I just tell him we're doing this, and then proceeding, slowly, then trying to reason him out of a meltdown. I don't know about the discipline thing, the description sounded more like firm boundaries, which autistic kids probably do need.

oh wow. thanks for the nice feedback, DW_a_mum.
We can really use forums to help each other and I think it is great to see this thread and all the views and exchange of ideas and approaches.

I started reading this thread over on the parent's page and registered with Wrong Planet specifically so I could join this discussion.

When we first got physical custody of our 10 year old with AS, he had been used to living with his biological mom who gave in to his every whim and could not stand to hear him cry. He was 100% used to getting his way and the result was a spoiled brat who was essentially intolerable to be around.

I was raised in the "We're the adults, do as we say" school of discipline but on his previous visits, that track had resulted in endless melt-downs.

I started researching his behaviors (which seemed non-typical to me for a child his age) and came across AS which seemed to describe him to a T. We started seeing a therapist who recommended "Parenting with Love and Logic" a book that helps you teach your child natural consequences for their actions in a way that appeals to their sense of logic (and justice). It's not written for kids with AS, but I've learned it works great for them.

After reading the book, if something new is being asked of him, we tell him why (and in particular why it benefits him) in as straight-forward and logical a manner as possible. He is allowed to negotiate if he has additional info that may logically change the outcome.

For example. Under our first "Obey" model, a situation would have gone down like this:

Me: "Please put your swim trunk in your backpack Joey".
Joey: "why should I?" (I would see this as defiance when it's really a valid question to him)
Me: "because I said so, now quit arguing and get your trunks, you're going to late for school".
Joey: "But I don't *need* them!"
Me: Quit arguing with me and GET YOUR TRUNKS NOW!! !"

Meltdown ensues

Now the situation goes something like this:

Me: "You forgot to put your swim trunks in your back pack. Today is pool day at school so if you don't get your trunks you won't be able to swim".
Joey: (Because he has pertinent info he is allowed to reply) "Pool day was canceled because of a roof leak and we'll be going skating instead".
Me: "OK then, you don't need your trunks after all. Will you need money for the skating rink?"

Meltdown avoided.

The authors also are advocates of giving choices and empowerment: "Do you want to brush your teeth before or after story time?".

Also, I came to find out he literally didn't understand what I meant by "arguing". I told him, "If you give me more info and I still want you to do as I've requested and you continue to negotiate, that's arguing...I will tell you Stop Arguing...that is a way to be 100% sure that you're arguing and you need to stop. Often when I ask him if he's understood what I mean when I've asked something of him, he hasn't.

It does take a lot more effort but it's really worth it. Talk to your child, find out what they're thinking, what motivates them. De-construct situations that go wrong (back track with him...let him realize which actions led to the eventual melt down so he can recognize those feelings/triggers that lead up to the unwanted behavior.

When we actually talked to him about why he was breaking and throwing things in class he said it's because his hands would "get bored" while the teacher was lecturing and he needed to do something to keep them busy. We asked him if he could think of anything that might help him keep his hands busy that wouldn't be destructive/disruptive to the rest of the class. He came up with the idea of squishy stress balls on his own (though we'd been thinking that on our own, we let him come up with the idea). Problem solved.

Another great resource for me has been "Parenting a Child With Asperger Syndrome: 200 Tips and Strategies" available through Amazon and probably at your local library. Lots of practical tips for getting buy-in from your child.

We still have the occasional melt-down, but we've accomplished what I'd consider miracles, in only 7 1/2 months, just from adopting a few of these techniques. Our home environment is 100% changed for the better and the best part is, he recognizes that his home life is more relaxing and better all-around when he "behaves", so he's happier, and most importantly, doesn't hate us for being dictators!

^^^ Wise words, strong individual. Posts like these are part of why I am proud to be a part of this site; thank you, Step, for sharing a very clear scenario of what you've found works best for the two of you, and a keen sense of awareness. Congratulations on your progress and success, and welcome to WrongPlanet.


M.