Are all aspies atheists -- or is it just me?

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Meow101
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21 Feb 2010, 11:13 am

Whatsherhame wrote:
I believe in God, and my beliefs lean towards Christianity.

Edit: This is just an observation, but has anyone else noticed that on the internet, if there is a religious debate some of the Athiests believe they're superior because they don't believe in god, some of the Believers think they're superior because they DO believe in god, and some of the agnostics think they're superior because they don't go either way?

Of course, this doesn't apply to everyone or even most people with these belief system, just the most... fundamentalist ones, if you will. I wonder why this happens with some people...


You made me think of one of my favorite bumper stickers, which says "Militant Agnostic: I don't know and neither do you"...

I don't think *I* am superior, but I do think that withholding a conclusion until there is adequate evidence for one way or the other is the superior method when dealing with a subject on which it is not necessary to make a decision *right now*. Otherwise I wouldn't use that method :)

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21 Feb 2010, 12:30 pm

Horus wrote:
glider18 wrote:
For all of you that say you have trouble accepting the word of God, you sure seem to want something out of this by continuing to post on it. Well...I can talk about my experiences, but it isn't the same as church. What I recommend is that you try going to church. And most of you probably have gone to church. But go again. Go tomorrow. Be open-minded and see if anything happens.




I'm too lazy.....it's a bit easier for god to come to me since he's omnipresent :jester:


Yes, but you miss the sermon :lol:, which today happened to be on the very thing I was talking about with someone else earlier---why God allows people to suffer.

I can say honestly that all this debate and argument has caused my faith in God to grow stronger. As much as one person says God doesn't exist, I can say God does exist. If you must be honest---you can neither prove God exists nor that he doens't exist. It is your opinion---not fact.

I bet fish in an aquarium that you created would have a hard time believing you put their environment together. If they thought about it, they would probably think evolution caused their aquarium to form the way it did. But you, who put the aquarium together, are their creator. Think about that. Could we as humans be in God's aquarium?

I probably won't be posting anymore on this thread. I have said all I'm going to say on it. Any other debate will have be done between the rest of you. I will conclude with my testimony that I have strong faith in God---as should be evidenced by my defense of Christianity.


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21 Feb 2010, 1:15 pm

Callista wrote:
Because he wanted to create humans, not pre-programmed robots.


but why is 'human' more valuable in itself than 'robot'? I can't work out why autonomy has this intrinsic value, or at the very least, how on earth it's worth the massive, massive, horrific, incomprehensible amounts of agony that have happened and still happen.

I think what's happening here is that people apply value to aspects of the world just because it's the world they live in. So, imagine you came from a heaven-like universe where all there was was infinite pleasure, and then you came to this universe. Would you think 'gee, I'm really missing out, I wish I had free will' - of course not!

I find very distasteful the idea that suffering is 'worth it'. Nothing can justify what's gone on, and if an omnipotent God does exist, he must be an absolute monster.


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Horus
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21 Feb 2010, 1:48 pm

Quote:
I can say honestly that all this debate and argument has caused my faith in God to grow stronger. As much as one person says God doesn't exist, I can say God does exist. If you must be honest---you can neither prove God exists nor that he doens't exist. It is your opinion---not fact.



My own disbelieve is not any stronger or weaker thanks to all this debate and argument. Frankly I don't even know why we bother. When it comes to arguments for/against the existence of god, there's really nothing new under the sun. I have never said I can prove god doesn't exist....nothing and no one can.

Just like I can't PROVE I will never win the lottery even though I don't even play. After all....someone might decide to buy me a winning ticket for example.

How unlikely does something have to be before we can rule it out with a reasonable degree of confidence?



Horus
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21 Feb 2010, 2:05 pm

Callista wrote:
Because he wanted to create humans, not pre-programmed robots.




How does free will exist if god is omniscient?


Because god is also supposedly omnipotent.....I have one possible answer for this.

I won't share it now though, you probably have some idea of answer I have in mind anyway.


I just wanted to see if you have any other answers for this questions.



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21 Feb 2010, 4:04 pm

It would be nearly statistically impossible for an entire group to be composed entirely of athiests.
Except for athiest groups, that is.

You can stop arguing about the existance of God now. It's impossible to win on either side, so why bother?


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21 Feb 2010, 5:33 pm

Religion is a crutch for the intellectually lazy.


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21 Feb 2010, 5:34 pm

I'm Buddhist. In Buddhist philosophy there isn't a divine creator, yet there is a god realm. All phenomena are mind created. You don't really worship anything or anyone, you develop the mind. And time is beginning-less.

someone made a point earlier that going to church is very social and that Aspies might not seek that out. I thought this was an interesting point, because the worst part for me about church when I was younger was that it was filled with people I really just didn't feel like talking to. And it smelled of gum, hairspray and pantyhose. uuuugghhh. In my late teens I did go to a church, but it was at night when it was empty and I'd just go sit and think and pray, etc. It was spooky and I liked it. And I like cathedrals - they're so awe inspiring - they're someone's achievement. Actually, I find devotion and faith in any religion fascinating. Part of my family was Jewish (my dad's side) but I wasn't raised Jewish. Later, an orthodox friend of mine invited me to be with her and her husband while he read the Purim story...anyway, it's too much for me to explain, but it was very cool and while he was reading/chanting, I felt this sensation, like there was something hovering over us - it was very soft and beautiful. And at the time I definitely did not believe in God.

So I'm Buddhist with a little Jewish in the family tree and I pray to Saint Anthony when I lose stuff - whaddya gonna do, ya know? :roll:

I think, within reason, whatever religion (or not!) makes people happy and helps alleviate their suffering, so long as it doesn't hurt others, is worth exploring or appreciating, or at least respecting as important them.



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21 Feb 2010, 6:23 pm

I'm atheist. :)


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21 Feb 2010, 7:20 pm

Odin wrote:
Religion is a crutch for the intellectually lazy.


I think your statement is funny considering your screen name, Odin, is the name of a god from a pre-Christian religion. I'm just poking fun.... :wink: Really though, maybe in some situations religion could be a tool for not having to think things through on one's own (and undoubtedly there are those who use it as such), but I think that depends on the practitioner. One can choose to be lazy and herded by those who claim to know better, or one can explore the underlying philosophy and take it to task, testing it and determining if it can withstand the rigors of reality. I know in Buddhism there is a great deal of room to flex one's critical thinking skills and indeed, there is an argument that the fundamentals of Buddhism don't constitute a religion but rather a philosophy. Investigation is an important component to the various Buddhist traditions and laziness simply does not have a place. In fact, laziness is a stumbling block that will compromise one's efforts. For example, in practicing throughout my day, I ideally should be aware of my thoughts, body, intentions, speech, etc. all day, every day. I should be constantly examining them for impatience, anger, mindlessness, attachment, greed, jealousy, etc., even to the slightest degree. Doing this requires the exact opposite of laziness - an active, engaged mind.



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21 Feb 2010, 7:27 pm

I absolutely believe in God and am Christian, though my views are more logically structured I think. I have problems accepting/differentiating some things that don't completely make sense to me, like some of the views around the holy trinity.

However, I have a more difficult time understanding people's views when say they need concrete answers or can't believe in something that they can't scientifically prove, when every time science answers a question, several more surface. We theorized about the atom, once that was scientifically proven, we theorized on smaller elements (electrons, protons, neutrons). We proved the existence of those and even smaller components (quarks) were theorized. We are just now begining to learn about those and now are theorizing about even smaller sub particles. What's next and what is concrete about something that still has parts that are not known/understood? Same with the creation of the universe, first there was a thought of a huge mass that appeared out of nowhere, now there is a theory of a very small particle that imploded, what I understood from the discovery channel anyway ( :

I believe a lot of scientific theories fall fine enough within the belief of still having a creator behind them.

The fact that spacetime is a single continuum rather then seperate measurments, still is a measurable state (exists) and anything that exists (in my mind) needs to have a reason, why would something or anything just exist with no reason on any continuum? Which (to me) is what people unaccepting are saying. I can't rationalize how something can just exist without a purpose, and how can there be a purpose withought someone making it so?

To me, I just can't grasp the fact that something can be created out of nothing by no one, that isn't logical to me. That we are completely random, for no reason seems to take a bit of faith in itself. I have an easier time believing that everything was created by God, and for a reason.

by the way, I stated before and am again, I respect the fact that everyone has a right to their opinions and it is a right granted to us. As other folks have been posting their views, I'm just throwing mine in the fray ( ;


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22 Feb 2010, 3:33 am

glider18 wrote:
Horus wrote:
glider18 wrote:
For all of you that say you have trouble accepting the word of God, you sure seem to want something out of this by continuing to post on it. Well...I can talk about my experiences, but it isn't the same as church. What I recommend is that you try going to church. And most of you probably have gone to church. But go again. Go tomorrow. Be open-minded and see if anything happens.




I'm too lazy.....it's a bit easier for god to come to me since he's omnipresent :jester:


Yes, but you miss the sermon :lol:, which today happened to be on the very thing I was talking about with someone else earlier---why God allows people to suffer.

I can say honestly that all this debate and argument has caused my faith in God to grow stronger. As much as one person says God doesn't exist, I can say God does exist. If you must be honest---you can neither prove God exists nor that he doens't exist. It is your opinion---not fact.


Actually, if you define a deity for me, I can consider whether it is logically possible.

I can also prove that it is not logical to assume there was a creator for what is merely a single boundary of the Universe.

Does the point of a cone need a creator... or does the cone exist because it is logically possible to construct it?

Quote:
I bet fish in an aquarium that you created would have a hard time believing you put their environment together. If they thought about it, they would probably think evolution caused their aquarium to form the way it did. But you, who put the aquarium together, are their creator. Think about that. Could we as humans be in God's aquarium?

I probably won't be posting anymore on this thread. I have said all I'm going to say on it. Any other debate will have be done between the rest of you. I will conclude with my testimony that I have strong faith in God---as should be evidenced by my defense of Christianity.


An aquarium shows a reduction of entropy, implying a manufactured item.

The Universe does not, and holds together logically without any such assumptions.


Whether you believe or not, it isn't required to explain anything, it raises more questions than it could possibly answer, and it is not something which holds up from any perspective other than the misguided surface appearance of awareness.

I'm not arguing that I'm better for discarding belief entirely, I'm just arguing that I have a richer understanding of reality without any such useless postulates.



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22 Feb 2010, 3:43 am

maleb wrote:
I absolutely believe in God and am Christian, though my views are more logically structured I think. I have problems accepting/differentiating some things that don't completely make sense to me, like some of the views around the holy trinity.

However, I have a more difficult time understanding people's views when say they need concrete answers or can't believe in something that they can't scientifically prove, when every time science answers a question, several more surface. We theorized about the atom, once that was scientifically proven, we theorized on smaller elements (electrons, protons, neutrons). We proved the existence of those and even smaller components (quarks) were theorized. We are just now begining to learn about those and now are theorizing about even smaller sub particles. What's next and what is concrete about something that still has parts that are not known/understood? Same with the creation of the universe, first there was a thought of a huge mass that appeared out of nowhere, now there is a theory of a very small particle that imploded, what I understood from the discovery channel anyway ( :

I believe a lot of scientific theories fall fine enough within the belief of still having a creator behind them.

The fact that spacetime is a single continuum rather then seperate measurments, still is a measurable state (exists) and anything that exists (in my mind) needs to have a reason, why would something or anything just exist with no reason on any continuum? Which (to me) is what people unaccepting are saying. I can't rationalize how something can just exist without a purpose, and how can there be a purpose withought someone making it so?


Does the statement "a(b+c)=(ab)+(ac)" have a purpose?

It exists, because it is self-consistent.

All things that are self-consistent, or not self-contradictory, appear to exist... because they are possible.

Quote:
To me, I just can't grasp the fact that something can be created out of nothing by no one, that isn't logical to me. That we are completely random, for no reason seems to take a bit of faith in itself. I have an easier time believing that everything was created by God, and for a reason.

by the way, I stated before and am again, I respect the fact that everyone has a right to their opinions and it is a right granted to us. As other folks have been posting their views, I'm just throwing mine in the fray ( ;


Not random, we are logically possible, so we are logically required to exist somewhere in the vastness of all potentialities.



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22 Feb 2010, 6:41 am

heh Tortuga.. your son sounds like me somwhat.. a philosophical ten year old (though im eight teen now) .

though ive been introduced to christianaly to an extent from an early age..
I would say I found god on my own. as I found God by pondering the nature of creation.
I cant deny God because it is evident in creation that God exists.

I acepted Jesus into my life at age eight. but only last year decieded to surender all.

this is the foundation of my faith.


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22 Feb 2010, 8:27 am

I stated that I would probably not post here anymore as I had made my points. But "probably" is not an absolute. I would like to add something.

Scorpileo---I sincerely appreciate your post.

JustMax---Since you seem so logic driven you cannot know whether or not my understanding is as rich as yours or not. You have no idea, and I have no idea. You speak of raising more questions, I will give you something to think about.

"It cannot be proven that God doesn't exist for one cannot prove a universal negative. And, the existence of God is something that could be proven. Also, the design, concept, and intricate details of the world and universe indicate an intelligent designer."

And I am aware of the debate over the interpretation of intelligent design. But the fact remains, one cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

And this debate will wage on forever as neither side of the debate will yield to the other. This has been the reason for countless wars and persecution both historically and presently---on both sides of the debate. So debate on if you wish. But I doubt seriously either side of this debate will be convinced of the opposing side's argument.

As this debate continues to wage on---please remember respect and the acceptance of diversity. I am addressing both sides of this debate. As autistics, we have come to take a lot of disrespect from the world. Let us not do the same thing to each other as this debate moves onward.

And let us remember the original post on this thread as told in the title of the thread about whether or not all Aspies are atheists or not. So basically we should just answer the question with a yes or no and appreciate diversity in religion. But I also assume debate was expected.


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Last edited by glider18 on 22 Feb 2010, 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

maleb
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22 Feb 2010, 8:33 am

justMax wrote:
maleb wrote:
I absolutely believe in God and am Christian, though my views are more logically structured I think. I have problems accepting/differentiating some things that don't completely make sense to me, like some of the views around the holy trinity.

However, I have a more difficult time understanding people's views when say they need concrete answers or can't believe in something that they can't scientifically prove, when every time science answers a question, several more surface. We theorized about the atom, once that was scientifically proven, we theorized on smaller elements (electrons, protons, neutrons). We proved the existence of those and even smaller components (quarks) were theorized. We are just now begining to learn about those and now are theorizing about even smaller sub particles. What's next and what is concrete about something that still has parts that are not known/understood? Same with the creation of the universe, first there was a thought of a huge mass that appeared out of nowhere, now there is a theory of a very small particle that imploded, what I understood from the discovery channel anyway ( :

I believe a lot of scientific theories fall fine enough within the belief of still having a creator behind them.

The fact that spacetime is a single continuum rather then seperate measurments, still is a measurable state (exists) and anything that exists (in my mind) needs to have a reason, why would something or anything just exist with no reason on any continuum? Which (to me) is what people unaccepting are saying. I can't rationalize how something can just exist without a purpose, and how can there be a purpose withought someone making it so?


Does the statement "a(b+c)=(ab)+(ac)" have a purpose?

It exists, because it is self-consistent.

All things that are self-consistent, or not self-contradictory, appear to exist... because they are possible.

Quote:
To me, I just can't grasp the fact that something can be created out of nothing by no one, that isn't logical to me. That we are completely random, for no reason seems to take a bit of faith in itself. I have an easier time believing that everything was created by God, and for a reason.

by the way, I stated before and am again, I respect the fact that everyone has a right to their opinions and it is a right granted to us. As other folks have been posting their views, I'm just throwing mine in the fray ( ;


Not random, we are logically possible, so we are logically required to exist somewhere in the vastness of all potentialities.




Logically possible because of intent. I can't fathom anything being possible if there is no intent. Looking at the old proverbial expression, "When Pig's Fly". Without going off on tangents about putting them on an airplane and such :) , but looking at the basic example of a pig with wings. Is it possible? Yes, absolutely possible. There wouldn't be a purpose for a pig to have wings however, thus, it does not naturally exist. So possible - yes, probably - no.
Would it be possible for me to walk through walls or be invisible naturally? Yes, it is theoretically possible, but there is no good purpose, thus it is not so.

For the statement "a(b+c)=(ab)+(ac)" , does it exist? yes. For a purpose though, you used it to provide an example to make a point, the energy put into it had a specific desired outcome to achieve. So it exists for a purpose. Now the statement itself doesn't have a logical answer, but it exists for a purpose.


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