Question for other NTs or for Undiagnosed ppl

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KoS
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19 Mar 2010, 8:33 pm

pandd wrote:

Philologos wrote:

The traits show up so early, and with no visible causation, that I do not doubt there is a hard wired element.

That said, I did just read the claim that young orangutans maltreated in certain ways develop Apie like traits.

Once again, etiology and phenotype do not simply match up.

ASDs are developmental conditions that entail symptoms developing in early childhood whether or not they are mistreated. A caged animal engages in stereotyped non-functional behavior, but we can be confident that most Autistic people were not raised in a cage.

Nothing that occurs in Autism cannot occur outside of Autism. If you consider what is occuring physically, either there is an excessive presence or absence of any particular possible neuro function/process. There is no reason why such anomalies cannot have some non-PDD cause. It is in fact unlikely that all instances of Autisms are all outcomes of a single sufficient cause. I expect there are a number of sufficient causes of Autisms, and I know that there are other causes than Autism/PDD of a diagnosible cluster of Autistic symptoms.

It hardly takes a cage, something a simple as a parent waiting too long to respond to a newborns cries is enough to incite a trauma response, if the parents are of the belief that it is best to leave a baby cry (which some people do believe is best) in his crib for awhile, the child is uknowingly traumatised. At this point in time the brains plasticity is at it's maximum and in the midst of creating it's core neural network (no coffee this morning, I can't remember the proper word for this period of time (critical period???), you'll probably know what I mean though) so any responses and interactions at the time can be hardwired in. I believe this can happen while a baby is still in the womb though and can create the more severe types of Autism.

Does any of this resonate with you? Just asking cause you seem to have done alot of research on the topic and are already open to the idea of alternate and multiple causes for ASDs.

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Mdyar
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19 Mar 2010, 10:09 pm

KoS wrote:

Just wondering if there are any NTs (or people who think they might have AS but aren't sure) out there who have some AS traits but not enough to warrant a diagnosis?

subclinical now

Quote:

I'm curious about this because I know I have alot of Aspie traits (and a few LFA ones) but I am not on the spectrum (I know this FOR SURE). The reason I think I have many ASD traits is because I grew up around Autism and picked up alot of behaviors from being with my family and knowing my brothers and sisters friends and their families. Because of my environment I ended up with an AS like personality (yet with the ability to live outside the box, hence why I'm not on the spectrum).

I grew up with an extrovert mother.

Quote:

There clearly is a certain 'type' of human who does seem to be almost on the spectrum, but not enough to actually climb over the fence and they identify with aspies, but they aren't one. I just kind of think there might be environmental-aspies and biological-aspies. Kind of how children can be 'made' severly autistic through terrible abuse/neglect, but had they had proper care they would have been fine, but on a much less severe scale.

Maybe that human is INTJ personality.
Other than that ; inability to read body languauge, taking things literaly , sensory issues , and executive dysfunctioning is something that cant be learnt' no matter how derpived and/ or abused the person was.
At the most you would get a PTSD and depression out of this, but not an ASD.

pandd
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19 Mar 2010, 11:03 pm

KoS wrote:

It hardly takes a cage,

The point of that particular comment was to demonstrate that traits and characteristics of Autism can occur in the absence of Autism (which follows on from the earlier poster's comment to similar effect). I did not intend to imply any uniqueness to caging, but rather to demonstrate same/similar outcome - disparate causes.

Quote:

something a simple as a parent waiting too long to respond to a newborns cries is enough to incite a trauma response, if the parents are of the belief that it is best to leave a baby cry (which some people do believe is best) in his crib for awhile, the child is uknowingly traumatised.

Really? I had been informed that leaving a child to cry for a short period of time is actually good for them; mind you advice about what is good or bad for children seems to routinely flip 180 degrees.

Quote:

Does any of this resonate with you?

Not particularly, but I am far from well versed or well researched in the area of childhood neuro-development (most of what I do know in this area, I know tangentially as a result of looking into Autism specific issues or as a result of learning about anthropological concepts rather than early neuro-development specifically, and in all honesty, it really is not very much at all). I would be surprised to learn that pre-natal trauma other than physical trauma were plausible, but that said I recognize that I am far from knowlegible in this area and I certainly do not know of any particular reason to reject or dismiss your assertions.

ForsakenEagle
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20 Mar 2010, 12:53 am

deadeyexx wrote:

I'm not diagnosed, but I was never around autism any as a kid. However, I still managed to develop so many aspie traits I doubt it's a coincidence. Speaking with people who are diagnosed only confirms how similar I am to them.

I'm not sure what a diagnosis would really do for me. I'd rather not think of myself as disabled, and don't really want an excuse for the way I am. I haven't done too shabby trying to hold myself up to NT standards.

Took the words right out of my mouth, friend.

budgenator
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20 Mar 2010, 9:33 am

KoS wrote:

do you think you have these traits because you're on the spectrum or because it's just your personality?

Why do you think the spectrum ends at where the clinicians think the traits become sub-clinical? For example Social Interaction impairment in those on the "spectrum" range from almost total and no verbal communications to a little bit to shy and quiet; yet there is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome">William's syndrome</a> where the people who have this condition are complete social butterflies and jabber like magpies.

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KoS
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20 Mar 2010, 5:13 pm

pandd wrote:

That is an extremely antiquated idea and has been proven to do the exact opposite of it's intention time and time again. It is also a great example to show how that kind of thinking/traume inducing behavior also correlates with a statistical rise in ASD DXs.

pandd wrote:

I would highly reccomend to you reading some material on the brain and especially brain plasticity (the best book is by Dr Norman Doidge and is call THE BRAIN THAT CHANGES ITSELF - it's very popular and brilliant) especially if you are interested in anthropology, learning how and why the brain functions gives a much deeper insight in to people and who they are (and Autism I believe). The information creates connections between behavior and reason.

I think anyone, anywhere would benefit from reading that book, especially people on the spectrum, it puts logic to certain things that I think would make it easier to understand certain aspects of their personalities, and others personalities.

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KoS
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20 Mar 2010, 5:14 pm

budgenator wrote:

KoS wrote:

do you think you have these traits because you're on the spectrum or because it's just your personality?

I don't....really see your point....? eep.

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bethaniej
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20 Mar 2010, 9:14 pm

Hmmm...I've always known there was a problem...big part of the problem is I have trouble, as i mentioned in another thread tonight, doing things that are 'optional.' Required things, no problem. But when i have to make a decision to do something I don't have to do and don't necessarily want to do...big problem. Also, over the years I've learned i'm slow. I'm really smart, and read well, with great comprehension. But it takes me longer to process information. Sometimes a person has said something, and to understand what they said, I have to replay it in my head. I heard it, but didn't 'pay attention' to it? Also I can memorize odd facts, but can't remember the dates of brothers and sisters birthdays. I have incredible problems in social situations. I described it to a therapist recently as having to remind myself of what to say in conversations. Like when someones says, "How are you doing?" I'll say, "fine." But then if I forget to remind myself (even at 40), I'm down the hall before I remember I was supposed to reciprocate. I have a terrible time on the phone in conversation unless I have something to say, or something I need to know. I've always had trouble looking someone in the eye while talking (have to remind myself to do this). I talk to myself and 'rehearse' social situations so i can be better prepared.

I don't know if I'll seek diagnosis at this point in my life. I'm doing SO well now, and am excited about my future (getting ready to take a white water rafting guide course and RESTART college again...but I'm trying this time to do small goals one at a time). I'm also taking ADD meds. They help me a lot.

I came to this website because my daughter has been diagnosed. It was so odd the first time I really realized there was a BIG problem. We went to see her sixth grade orchestra teacher for the first time. My daughter talked a lot, as she sometimes does when she's nervous, but she didn't look the teacher in the eye even one time. There were always differences that I knew about...and of course the rages, and lots of other symptoms...but watching that interraction? Wow....I knew there was a problem. The school counselor that year suggested a psych eval. That's when the whole process began.

but being here? I've realized I have a lot in common with people on the spectrum. I don't know if that puts me there...I don't know if I need to know. Like I've mentioned, I'm doing well. But my Dad has severe problems, my brother has been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and so have I.

anbuend
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20 Mar 2010, 11:09 pm

Women in my family besides me (the only diagnosed woman) seem to have lots of traits but also not be quite diagnosable. (Although some in my family think my grandmother might be.)

In the autistic community having autistic traits without being autistic is called being a "cousin". Which stems from an autistic woman going "Cousin!! !" whenshe met a man with hydrocephalus who had many traits.

Among the research community it is called BAP or Broader Autism Phenotype. It's also been found at least once that close relatives of autistic people with measurable brain abnormalities often have the same abnormalities.

There is also something that I have seen happen many times to people I have known online. They had an autistic brother or daughter or whatever. They recognize traits in themselves. They say "But I can't be autistic because I have Trait X." And then... it turns out lacking Trait X was not really a characteristic of autism but just a stereotype. And the person who was thought to just have traits is diagnosed.

A similar thing happens when a person appears normal compared to an autistic sibling. But it turns out that compared to actual normal they're autistic. Or else they have traits the opposite of another autistic person's traits but it turns out both extremes of those traits are diagnosable. (I also read a study once where traits were listed and both autistic and nonautistic people were rated on them as "yes," "somewhat," and "no." And the results were that nonautistic people tended towards the middle and autistics tended to BOTH extremes.)

Also things have happened where people think they're nonautistic but are just really good at passing, and people who think they're really good at passing weren't at all, etc. (And many nonautistic people will see very clear autistic traits and find alternate explanations, so the person isn't passing as much as being passed.)

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Meow101
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21 Mar 2010, 11:37 am

jimdotbeep wrote:

Callista wrote:

Well, I'm diagnosed, but I'm thinking about my younger sister (not the youngest, the middle child in this case), who is probably NT with autistic traits. She's the only one in my family who I think could not be diagnosed with autism.

She left home at sixteen, graduated from college at twenty-two, and is now working at a bakery and looking for a job as a translator. She makes a small number of close friends wherever she goes.

She's an introvert. She makes friends slowly. She's shy and easily embarrassed. She went through an intense horse phase as a child. She's probably asexual, like me, though it could just be that she prefers not to get married (I haven't pried into her personal life; she's just never had a significant other, even when she met boys who obviously liked her and whom she liked--only it always seemed to be as friends). As a very young child, she had pedantic speech; but she lost that by the second grade and picked up the cadence of the people around her (complicated by the fact that she had to learn English at the age of four). She's also been diagnosed with depression, but that's no wonder considering the household we had to live in as teens, and the likely genetic vulnerability we both inherited from our mom. She also inherited the distinct talent for music and reading that our whole family has; as youngsters, she and I used to sing duets, and she picked up reading remarkably fast, though at the old (for our family) age of five.

My sister's not autistic. She was always the one embarrassed by my "weird" behavior; my mom having no clue why what I was doing was embarrassing. But she does, like I said, have some traits.

That description sounds like a lot more "than some traits" That sounded just like all the classic hallmarks of autism to me. She should probably talk to a doctor about this.

I agree. The presence of being able to function with great effort doesn't exclude AS. I also read the newspaper at age 3, left HS early, graduated college at 21, have a graduate degree, yet my personal life is a @! !#*@ mess. My work is in the medical field, but I do a lot of translating on the side, because it is one of my obsessions (I know three languages perfectionistically well). I'm not asexual but my inability to communicate emotionally has been a constant problem for me in my marriage.

I haven't been diagnosed formally, but I work in the neurological field and I knew as soon as I put away the denial what was going on. (my scores on those "tests" are definitely suggestive as well, if I'm honest). I'm still not sure if a diagnosis would be of any use, except to convince my husband that I'm not just a selfish, lazy, non-communicative b*tch. But I don't think it would even do that...

~Kate

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pandd
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21 Mar 2010, 4:56 pm

KoS wrote:

As I said, these things routinely flip 180 degrees. The way my mother was instructed to position babies in a cot when my sister and I were of the relevant age (to avoid cot death) was the same exact thing that parents were told to never do for fear of increasing the risk of cot death, by the time she was raising my younger sister. Fortunately, my step-son was already 6 years old when he came to live with my partner and I, so I have not had to concern myself with such things, and as to myself, I did not cry as a baby; I was exceptionally passive.

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22 Mar 2010, 6:17 am

willaful wrote:

I am virtually certain that I'm on the spectrum. There are many, many things that make me think so, but the primary one was the realization that I didn't start to understand that other people have different points of view until I was in my 20s. It was never that I didn't *care* about other people's feelings, just that my own were so strong I couldn't see beyond them...

Massive chewing needs -- I chewed ... all the hands and feet off my dolls. (So happy there are better ways to deal with now! My son had chewy tools and now uses gum.) No social skills, always the odd kid out. Easily overstimulated or overwhelmed. Very anxious. Very bad sleeper...

I think I mostly "pass," but I still have problems with small talk and with eye contact; I never know how long I'm supposed to do it for...

I relate to all this. My barbie dolls all had chewed hands and feet and I chewed poor Montgomery Moose's antlers. I still chew pens. I chew my knuckles when I'm stressed too. I was in a road accident and I was in so much pain waiting for the ambulance I was chewing on my hand, then I suddenly realised that I was chewing the hand of the woman who had stopped to put a blanket over me and phone an ambulance. She was holding my hand. That was embarassing. :oops:

It also took me a long time to realise that other people had different points of view. I used to be so headstrong and opinionated. But I have mellowed as I've got older. My parent's haven't. They are in their 40s now and still haven't learned that everybody has a different way to view the world.

marriedsinglemomma
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22 Mar 2010, 10:00 pm

I think you can aquire traits from being close to somone...Just like some people start to look alike after they have been married along time or some people start to look like their dogs

I am not sure If I am truely the NT in our relationship as I have ADHD, however I have aquired a few of the aspie traits from being around my husband. i have noticed in the last year or two that I no longer make eye contact with most people outside the home...this is not something I picked up that he did until I started doing it. it is very sureal for me as I am a very very social person and have never been the type to shy away or fly under the radar...I am slowly becoming me again, but I have found that I have lost myself in some of his traits.

However I have also taken some of the AQ and other tests that were posted and for Empathy I scored as an aspie on the higher end...But I have allways know that I am not empathetic as people call me out about it.

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22 Mar 2010, 10:49 pm

musicboxforever wrote:

Oh I forgot about pens, I did that too. I seem to have grown out of the need at some point -- though have picked up the gum habit from my son.

That must have been quite an odd experience for that woman. :lol:

But considering the circumstance she probably didn't think that much about it.

I have mellowed considerably as I got older. But your post makes me think of my aunt, who is the most astonishingly self-centered person I've ever met and has not changed a whit with age. My mom, her twin, has some aspie traits but is quite different.

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Angnix
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23 Mar 2010, 9:14 am

I'm confused basically... I don't know if it's biological though, since I don't notice that many traits in my family and LFA isn't present at all in any of my relatives. As a kid, I was dxed with ADHD and emotionally impaired, as an adult Schizoaffective Disorder.

Various people think I have AS, various people think I don't. I was told by mental health professionals getting diagnosed for me would be a waste of time.

AS traits-
Intense interests in subjects, often weird. (birds, Sonic)

Poor enough social skills as a kid that I had to go through counseling, but now that I am an adult, has improved a lot.

Stimming, especially pacing, rocking, hand wringing, flapping

Sometimes taking things literally, especially as a kid.

Extra good senses.

NT traits-
Not much problem with non-verbal

No big sensory issues

Complex emotions and able to describe them

I was told I have good conversation skills, and I look people in the eye.

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