I fear I might become racist against NT's...

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thank you for that. its true that there are a lot of NTs with low iqs, just like a lot of NTs are smarter than some aspies, people come in all shapes and sizes =) i think it will be interesting to see in a couple years what happens with the aspies who think this way tho, if the DSM really does remove aspergers and suddenly they are all lumped in with the rest of the autistics including those with cognitive impairments. suddenly they will not be part of a group with only "average or above average" intelligence, but part of one that encompasses all ranges, like us non-autistics are.



and the other simple truth is that the non-autistics here ARE NOT THOSE PEOPLE. if there are two distinct sides, then we are on YOUR SIDE. we didnt do those things to you, and neither did the vast majority of the NT population. we are here because someone we love is autistic, sometimes multiple loved ones. we are here to learn and i think we could even teach a few things if allowed.

and yet we are the ones bearing the brunt of the disdain and hatred. individually non-autistics in this thread have been treated pretty crappy. as a whole, we have been called, and not "some NTs are" but "NTs are", dishonest, bullies, deceptive, selfish, thoughtless, mean, mentally ret*d, cruel, emotional, stupid, moronic, irritating, and the worst creature ever made. and thats just in this one thread.

gee, i feel so loved. i guess NTs dont have the market cornered on at least mean.

i will be appalled if my son grows up to espouse such beliefs about any group of people, especially one that includes his mother and brothers. its not racism, but it is definitely prejudice and bigotry.

Apx, you said " I think we are still dealing with the remnants of a world which views ASD people as aberrations"

Actually the way I see it you/we are still dealing with a world right now that has almost no frikkin understanding of ASD. Really. People I know and work with just don't know anything about it, they have heard of Autism and Aspergers, sure, but it doesn't allow them to understand what it means except superficially.
So your dealing mainly with ignorance not intolerance I think. I was ignorant. Now that I know a lot more I can look back and think..hmm..'that kid at school'..'that guy I worked with'...

Edit: On the Autism Speaks guy, he see's his son as having severe difficulties as opposed to what some might call a difference. That's what he wants to 'fix'. To the father being able to talk is normal and he wants his son to be normal so he doesn't have these difficulties. Has anyone tried I wonder to put a different POV to him? I doubt it.

I see your point, my statement was far too optimistic. However, I think the same attitude is present with both the ignorant and those who are more informed. Occasionally not, but it is far easier for professionals and families to condescend rather than comprehend. I've read two books out of about fifteen on autism, which I was able to stomach, for example. Most of them spoke of us in a rather simple-minded way. I found it quite offensive.



Well, to the contrary, the thread regarding that video did contain that viewpoint. I understand the sympathy for people and family of people with severe LFA, but I remain skeptical regarding the nature of LFA. I know that many of us with HFA can safely say that we don't want many things that people presume we should want. For that reason, I think it's irresponsible to publicly presume to know what LFA people need. I know it's possible they're on the right track, but I hope they're giving good thought to the question of what a person like that really needs.

What if all we can do is give these people helmets and talking computers (and more technology down the track)? You know, all you can give me is space, a way to learn new things, and a way to talk to more people like me. Nothing is going to make eye contact or touching less excruciating. Nothing is going to make socialising with 90% of the population less excruciating. I have to wonder if LFA people aren't much in the same boat.

I am not saying that the people here who are non-autistic are the people who bullied aspies at school. But it is possible they saw an aspie at some point, at school or at work, being bullied or excluded, and thought "Oh well, that person has asked for it. They dont tow the line socially, so they cant expect to have friends, or have someone stand up for them."

And it is not the bullies who often think this, it is the normal, average, everyday person.

This is how many non-autistic people view the behaviour of people with autism- if they do not tow the line, then tough. But they dont realise how hard it is to tow the line when you dont understand the rules in the first place.

thats a really good point, and probably one of the main problems with advocating for non-verbals. its hard to ask them what they want.

i look at my as son and he is smart, beautiful, funny, and the absolute joy of my life. i love him exactly as he is. i wouldnt want to change him for me, but i would want to change the difficulties he is going to have for him. the world can be a cruel place and i know that, and i know he is going to feel the sting of it more than my other kids and i cant stop it all and that breaks my heart.

thats what parents do. we try to make things better for our kids. i cant even imagine the heartache that parents of lfa go through with their kids over the difficulties (the parents perceive) the kids experience. im sure for many parents the benefits of autism are heavily outweighed by the difficulties they believe it causes. im not surprised many of them want a cure for their children.

maybe thats not what lfa want or need, thats just the parental drive to make the bad things go away for our kids.

What are your thoughts on the following help:
-A mom accompanying her 15 year old son with AS to the supermarket, trying to teach him how to do grocery shopping without becoming so scared that he has a meltdown. She shows him how to interpret other people's movements between the aisles, explains why things are as they are. She does this so that her son may shop on his own one day.
-A boy taking his aspie friend to a football match. He tries to explain why the spectators do what they do, and why they react the way they do when his friends starts to become scared. He does this because his friend feels lonely, and he wants to socialise more, and "fit in" (his own words) with his peers.

Is it arrogant to want to help in this way? Is it arrogance to see and address the challenges that one's loved ones struggle with? Should the mother just leave it and accept that her son will never be able to fully take care of himself (shop for food, live by himself, perhaps get a job), or should she try to help him with coping? Forget the "help to become 'normal'"-thing. It's not about that, it's not about shame. It is about coping better in the world, the way this world works. I know that some problems arise directly from the behaviour of the surroundings of the HFA., but not all.

In an attempt to bring order to the apparent chaos to the NT world, in try to understand people from an evolutionary psychology point of view.

So we know that some of us don't like/are suspicious of some NTs because of how we were treated. Why were we treated that way? Because we are different. Why do people not like those who are different? Possibly for tribal reasons. People from other tribes were viewed as suspiscious as they would have competed for the same resources,etc. Presumably it evokes an emotional response, like discomfort.

The question is if people are so civilised, why can't people use their big cerebral cortices to over ride this emotional response? Probably because underneath we're still apes.

I think that some people CAN override that response, if properly taught. If you take a course in management, a whole section is given over to teaching managers how to override biases. It doesn't always "take," but it can help. I think something similar would help here too--ignorance (and I mean that in the literal sense, not an insult) is the enemy here, and at least some people can learn how to override their normal responses.

deleted (why would I share personal things with complete strangers?)

Last edited by Mama_to_Grace on 10 Jul 2010, 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I have and continue to experience negativity from both autistic and non-autistic people, anything ranging from outright bullying to sly remarks.

I think when an aspie vents frustration against NT, it is because that seems to be the larger group that has caused the suffering.

All I know these days is that I would rather spend time with NTs than some of the aspies I have met, it is not that clear cut and the choice would be difficult, but overall, the NTs would be a better choice.

If you are an aspie who has only ever experienced unpleasantness from the NT world, then you have been most fortunate.

Jaydee...? Please don't address me unless you have a serious question to ask me. It's really not fair to try waste my time like that. For the same reason I'll keep my response to you short.

Mama to Grace. Please don't address me unless you want to share thoughts from a logical perspective. Your emotional rant there was rather irrelevant to my actual meaning. I think you may be entirely too emotional a person to ever have a meaningful conversation with me, so please just leave me alone. I already have two loved ones with that problem, and I *have* to deal with them.

Meaningful exchange, for me, is when at least 80% of the conversation is not filled with trying to explain every way someone misunderstood me. I prefer a higher rate of relevant information exchange. That shouldn't be at all surprising. Normal conversation is occassionally about saying, "oh, no, I meant this," but when it becomes the entire topic I know I've walked into a daaaark, frightening place. This is why I prefer conversation with aspies.... I'm really not just prejudiced. I need logical conversation. So please chill the hell out, you have seriously got so much to learn.

There. I tried. Goodbye.

Hi there! I feel terrible that you feel that way about "us"! But listening to your explanation about your family is very informative! I am so sorry you have morons for parents! I am not sure what you would classify me as, I am AD/HD, I guess I think of myself as a NT, but maybe you would not. Just to let you know though, it is not NT's in particular that you are referring too, so I do not think you have to worry about becoming "racist". You are referring to people who grew up in a time when ASD's were not that "popular", my son was diagnosed 11 years ago and it was still rare. Now a days it seems like everyone knows some one who has been "affected" by it! Besides my 14 yr old son, I have a 3 year old ASD daughter, and my 21 month old daughter who I thought was NT, is also going to be evaluated because ASD traits are becoming more and more obvious. To me my ASD kids are "normal", it is what I know. And just be patent with the NT population, we have come along way in the last 10 years, trust me I once had social services called on me, (while in the CLINIC!!), because my son, 4 at the time, was trying to bash his head into the concrete floor and I was using a "fireman's" hold on him so he would not be injured and someone didn't like it! That would not happen now a days, as soon as an NT hears the word Autism understanding sinks in.. at least in my experience. So be a little more understanding and accepting, like you want NT's to be. Another thing you could do to help ASD persons would be to advicate, get out there and tell your story! I am so happy to have found this sight, a lot of times my kids can not express themselves and I am so grateful to have the help I have found here from the ASD community! Think of it as going to a different country where you do not speak the language and nobody there speaks english, sometimes we can all use a good translater! So instead of getting frustrated with us, help us to understand, you have passion, use it to advocate for ASD persons! Most advocates are NT's, usually parents of ASD's I believe, I think ASD needs more ASD diagnosed advocates, I believe that is why Dr. Temple is so popular, we do WANT to understand, but we need someone to help us ! But always remember, like society is diverse, so are ASD's... meaning watch what you are advocating for, because there are a lot of ASD persons out there who are not like you, they will never speak, never be able to take care of themselves, they will always need care, so you can not push for equality for all ASD persons, because that would not be realistic. Good luck to you, and remember we are not all bad and out to find a "cure" to "fix" you! (I hate the word cure associated with ASD, like my child has a disease or something! My children are PERFECT, I do not mind research on genes and causes, and I would love to see more research on how to make the learning environment more efficient for ASD kids).

Don't feel too terrible. There are a lot of us out there who try very hard to progress to NT ability and we make progress, but it can be almost lifelong.

I think all NTs feel frustrated with an autistic person at one time or another, probably because they are unaware that the person is on the spectrum, the same as many aspies feel frustrated by the NT world, just seems to go with the territory and I see it more as an expressing of feelings, which I think must be expressed. I spent a lot of years trying to pretend to be normal and it does us no good inside.

I think the NT world is a large majority and strong enough to cope with it

As Luke Jackson would say "prejudice works both ways" pg 185 Freaks, Geeks, and Asperger Syndrome

It is not.
I've never abused, tortured or bullied nobody no matter how different and strange he appeared to me ,
Actually , i like the strange and the different and look for it and after it with curiosity and love,
on the other hand i was abused,used, tortured and bullied from the day i was born just because i appear very strange to others and don't like and can not follow what is considered the norm,
Mind u,i don't force my set of values on others the way NT do, i just try to live according to the way i sense reality without breaking fundamental moral codes (like hurting another person and such).
so excuse me if i tend to look at such false symmetries as an hypocrisy that doesn't stand the test of real life experience/

Last edited by nara44 on 06 Aug 2010, 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

this is quite common in those with aspergers thats why people think its creepy. i know nts suck but we have to co exist