The Trials of being a Woman with AS

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Joined: 7 Nov 2008
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15 Sep 2010, 5:02 pm

I'm tired of being told I'm depressed because I'm not grinning like a f*****g loon every time you see me.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY! NEUROTYPICAL! WEAR THE GODDAMNED MASK!

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ladyrain
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15 Sep 2010, 5:05 pm

Moog wrote:

The majority of the problems that apply to women listed in the OP also apply to men, sometimes in different ways. Why be divisive? I don't get it.

I really don't think it was intended to be divisive, but the opposite, to illustrate what you say - that the majority of problems apply to AS, regardless of gender, even though there are differences. Whilst I just don't let the clothes/make-up thing bother me much, all the other points totally apply, and I was physically beaten by others girls at school too.

It seems sad to me that AS women seem to have to justify ourselves for every single word, especially to guys who share the wiring and know how hard it is to get your point across as you really mean it. It often doesn't seem that we are welcome here, just like RL really. But my view is that I have more shared understanding of the problems of AS than someone who is not on the spectrum, I find 'most' women an alien gender to me, in a way that men are not, and I would like everyone to get more out of their lives, so that we all get more jobs, friends, love, sex, romance - whatever it is we need. I don't understand why that isn't obvious.

Chronos wrote:

I do understand your "lot" in life actually. I don't see what made you conclude that I don't unless you feel that bringing to light the things women face, in response to accusations that women have it easier, somehow minimizes what men with AS face. Not only do I understand it but I'm actually quite sympathetic to it, which is why I have spent so much time responding to posts in the dating forum, despite the hostilities towards me just for being a woman, because I know the things the men go through and I know that many men desperately want a woman, and I would like them to find happiness in life so I have done my best to offer them what advice and insight I can, even though most of these men have declared me the root of all evils by proxy of my sex.

OddFiction wrote:

I'd like to end it. I'd like to agree that ASD men have a LOT of the same issues that you posted in your OP and to the SAME extent as women do. I'd like to agree that men who say "Women can just go out there and fill their needs" are short sighted and wrong. I'd like to agree that a lot of men are looking for romance and relationships, not just (or even primarily) sex. I'd like to agree that noone should be putting down anyone else's troubles in regards to ANY topic. That we are all here, as people on, or associated with people on the ASD spectrum, to support one another, and to stop criticizing or weighing the troubles of one gender against the other.

ToughDiamond wrote:

[Point no. 11 - there's no help for men either, in my experience. Not for free anyway.

Basically we're all in the same leaky boat together.

Too true TD.

ladyrain
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15 Sep 2010, 5:39 pm

I can wear no make-up, jeans/khakis and loose shirts - even if it annoys women around me, and I have to put up with snide attitudes because of it. At least I do have the choice, and I can find ways to smarten up when necessary, without being too uncomfortable. But perhaps making that choice limits me in ways I don't realise.

It seems just as likely that guys have been the flamboyant ones in history, or in different cultures. There's a lot more diversity than just the current western viewpoint, and men can be peacocks too. There are historical precedents for almost any fashion you choose.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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15 Sep 2010, 6:47 pm

Chronos wrote:

I've decided to write this post as it has been called to my attention that many people are ignorant as to the issues women with AS face. So I thought I would give you all an idea of the things many of us have to put up with.

1. We are a minority among minorities, and apparently not very well understood amongst our own "kind" or the psychiatrists, psychologists, and others who theoretically are supposed to help us.

True. Not many are aware that autism can affect women, since men affected outnumber us.

Quote:

2. Women with AS are more likely to be brushed off as "cold" or "frigid" or "depressed" or misdiagnosed as having a mood disorder for which they are then improperly medicated.

Sometimes, the medicines can have strange effects which is why a accurate diagnosis is needed.

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3. Women with AS not only suffer the same social deficits as men with AS, but have to deal with the added pressure of the fact that women in society are expected to be more social and more emotionally expressive than men in general. This causes a woman with AS to be more distant from NT women than men with AS are from NT men.

It causes a girl with AS to be ostracized and despised by her male and female peers. Sometimes, other girls can be antagonistic toward us.

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4. Women's clothing is geared towards aesthetics, not comfort or function, and so is usually more complex and uncomfortable than men's clothing. Women are expected to wear things such as bras, which many women with AS find difficult to tolerate.

It would be nice if it were designed to be comfortable and asthetically pleasing, both. I can wear bras if they are the right size. It's a good idea to make sure the bra isn't too small.

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5. Women are expected to wear makeup in society, which many women with AS also find difficult to tolerate.

I don't wear makeup now, but I used to wear it all the time. It wasn't clothing or lack of makeup that caused me difficulties.

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6. Women are judged far more strongly by their appearance and a woman with AS who cannot tolerate bras, women's clothing or makeup may very well be passed up for a good job on the basis of her looks, and will very likely exclude herself from finding a partner.

People are too shallow and superficial.

Quote:

We often get taken advantage of by men and bad mouthed by women because we aren't as good at manipulating so we are seen as naive or promiscuous. It's not that we don't want a bf, we just have a hard time saying what needs to said and doing what needs to be done to keep the relationship going. We find someone new and try with them, experiencing the same results over and over. It's too easy for me to appreciate niceness and concern in others and to fall in a temporary state of love with those qualities and not the person.

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The difficulty in forming friendships with NT women is underscored by the fact that many women with AS, having what is thought to be a "masculine" brain, and don't even share many common interests or perspectives with NT women.

I have a hard time with the petty back biting, gossiping, and drama. I don't seek to create it. Perhaps, people think life's too boring without it.

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8. In non-platonic relationships, women are expected to have a high level of intuition and perception, and provide a high level of emotional warmth, and most women with AS do not have the ability to provide this due to the non-verbal learning disabilities./quote]Not only because of that, it also gets exhausting. It's not a natural state. It feels awkward and I worry if me showing concern is what is needed or am I coming off as fake and insincere. Most the time, I don't comment on other people's emotional states because I am not sure if that's what they want.

Quote:

9. Many women with AS do not like to be touched, which can make forming a non-platonic relationship difficult even when she wants to be with the person.

Touching is alright. What I really don't like is to be kissed. I especially don't want to be kissed on the cheek by someone with moist lips. I have never liked that. When I was a kid, I protested this sort of thing strongly and was despised for it, but I simply cannot help it. I don't like the feeling of wet lip prints on my cheek.
I have found people are more offended by someone who doesn't like to be kissed than they are someone who doesn't want touching.

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10. Women with AS are just as socially naive as men with AS, and far more likely to be taken advantage of physically by the opposite sex because there is more of an attempt to do so by the opposite sex and she may have a far more difficult time determining a man's intentions than an NT woman. She is also far more likely to be unaware of how he is interpreting her on a non-verbal level.

So true. We are naive and easily taken advantage of. Plus, we really appreciate niceness in others, so, sometimes, if someone is nice to us, we are taken by it and like that person. In our ideal world, everyone is nice to us all the time.

Quote:

11. There is little in the way of support for adults with AS, and far less in the way of support for women with AS.

Most of the support is for people with mental illnesses, those subjected to domestic violence, weight issues and assaults. Not a lot of support exists for women with autism.

Quote:

Perhaps there are frustrated men here. The description of AS in the DSM attracts people who haven't had success socially. Some of them could be bitter about it and not fully understand why.

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13. "Support" sites such as this are full of men with AS who minimize the difficulties of women with AS by proclaiming we have it so much easier, and failing to really stop and think and consider that perhaps we really don't, because we have all the same social deficits they do, while at the same time more social expectations are placed on us, and there are fewer safe people for us to make friends with.

There's always going to be men who think that way about women and women who feel the same about men. People tend to think the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. We have to remember everyone experiences difficulties.

Quote:

I'm not saying we always have it worse than the men. We're less likely to be physically bullied in school and it's not nearly as socially inappropriate for us to cry in public, but we certainly don't have it any easier and I would really appreciate if those of you who think that we do, would stop.

I have seen some men and women both who have had it as bad as me bully-wise. I know it's not just me who experiences it.

Erisad
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15 Sep 2010, 7:31 pm

hale_bopp wrote:

I think women and men have their fair shares of problems each. I think its a good idea to accept that and not undermine the problems of the other sex.

Being a woman with AS is easier in some ways than men with AS, and more difficult in others. Would be good if all parties recognised this.

^This.

Seriously, until you lived in the other person's shoes you have no right to judge how easy/hard their life is.

primaloath
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16 Sep 2010, 3:07 am

Chronos wrote:

Women with AS not only suffer the same social deficits as men with AS, but have to deal with the added pressure of the fact that women in society are expected to be more social and more emotionally expressive than men in general. This causes a woman with AS to be more distant from NT women than men with AS are from NT men.

I know how this would definitely be a problem professionally, particularly since the upper layers of companies, to my understanding, are always cluttered with politically-oriented manager types. Socially, however, are there environments that don't exert this sort of influence?

Chronos wrote:

Women are judged far more strongly by their appearance and a woman with AS who cannot tolerate bras, women's clothing or makeup may very well be passed up for a good job on the basis of her looks, and will very likely exclude herself from finding a partner.

I know these things wouldn't make a difference to me at all. Do men generally care about them, outside of dating contexts and outside of sales / PR roles?

Chronos wrote:

Women with AS are just as socially naive as men with AS, and far more likely to be taken advantage of physically by the opposite sex because there is more of an attempt to do so by the opposite sex and she may have a far more difficult time determining a man's intentions than an NT woman. She is also far more likely to be unaware of how he is interpreting her on a non-verbal level.

I strongly sypathize with this. Being accepted by a psychopath is far worse than being rejected by one. Moreover, when being rejected early in (or before) the relationship by several people in a row, one can more easily get a feeling for the kind of people they are. By contrast, someone taken in by a psychopath, without no experience and no friends who might offer warnings, will risk getting into a very bad situation.

Chronos wrote:

There is little in the way of support for adults with AS, and far less in the way of support for women with AS.

There do seem to be online resources specifically for women: www.autismwomensnetwork.org/
Nevertheless, one has to learn about autism before gaining access to these.

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:

It's not ok to treat men as hunters and women as walking wombs. We can change our mental perspective if we want to. All it takes is using your damn neocortex. It's not that hard. I don't expect men to be 'hunter' types. I don't expect them to provide for me or do the heavy lifting for me. I think it's every bit as sexist as criticizing a woman for wearing comfortable clothes instead of highly sexualizing ones.

I completely agree.

Finally, as LadyRain stated, humanity is neurodiverse. People can and do fall into different personality types; these types need not be uniformly distributed themselves, and preferences for clothing etc need not be uniformly distributed among them. My own belief, for instance, is that people should wear clothes for utilitarian purposes and that whoever criticizes them for their choice of clothes, or wears "glamorous" or "fashionable" clothes (you know the type), is probably evil. I have always been skeptical about this rule, for the sake of treating people kindly before learning all the facts, but have never been proven wrong.

I suspect at least some non-human animal species are neurodiverse as well, particularly species for which selection processes are not ruthlessly strict.

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16 Sep 2010, 6:21 am

nekowafer wrote:

Another_Alien wrote:

Oh pl-ease. You're not seriously disputing that most women (I didn't say all) want a man that's more masculine than them.

Maybe that is how it used to be, but I think more of the younger generation (say teens to 30s) are accepting of it now. Older women most likely are not. And it's getting more and more acceptable every day.

I'm in my 40s

But of course I'm an Aspie...so I'm not like "most" ppl...

~Kate

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16 Sep 2010, 6:24 am

Chronos wrote:

Men don't expect it, and granted many women with AS are going to find certain clothing uncomfortable that NT woman wouldn't think anything of (For God's sakes some NT women don't even cut the tags out of their clothes!)

But I think if men actually tried on a complete woman's outfit the most of them would think "How the hell do they wear this all day?" The fact of the matter is, some of those outfits have to be uncomfortable to look that way, and men do like the way they look, which they can't be faulted for of course. One find aesthetically pleasing what they find aesthetically pleasing. I personally just wish that aesthetically pleasing for women to wear didn't have to be tight, itchy, and lacking in functionality.

As for woman's willingness to wear uncomfortable clothes.
On many many occasions:
Me: Isn't that uncomfortable?
My NT sister: Yes.
Me: Then why are you wearing it?
My NT sister: Because it's cute!

Oh. My. Gawd.

:roll:

As long as NT women are willing to do this, there's no hope for us....

~Kate

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16 Sep 2010, 8:24 am

I know sex is important to men, and I'm probably one of the few women you will find who recognizes that a healthy sex life in a lot of men, equates to good emotional and mental health, but the female equivalent is usually romance, and I don't think most women with AS are getting romance any more than most men with AS are getting sex and it can be equally frustrating for both of them.
[/quote]

Hey, I think that too. At least, I strongly suspect it, about men.

I've never had much romance. It's one of the areas I fall short in. There seems to be an expectation around it; as a woman I'm supposed to expect it.
Which, I don't. There are some situations where, yes, I'd really like it. Others where, yes, I would just roll my eyes at it!!

Quote:

And this is where the conversation usually degenerates into "women just have to sit there in the open and can get any guy they want" which is absolute BS. And let us be entirely realistic and state that even if a woman with AS did initially get the man she wants, it doesn't mean she will be able to create or sustain a romantic relationship with him, due to all the problems a person with AS can have in a relationship, just like even if a man with AS can meet a woman, it doesn't mean he will be able to advance the relationship to the point of sex or anything more meaningful, for the same exact reasons.

We have social issues. Both men and women with AS and even and even though we fight slightly different battles, we are really trying to win equivalent things emotionally. So lets just stop with saying women have it easier and all the hostilities towards women.

I agree with both these paragraphs. .. especially the first.

Again, it's where I fall short. It's just the way I am. Basically it seems that I'm so complicated and hard to read .. that it's virtually impossible for a man in such a position to read me at all, which means they'd have to, like, learn a whole new language (figuratively speaking) in order to get close to me. It's statistically unlikely that anyone will ever take that on, and even if they did I'd probably turn them right off by becoming over-excited. Apparently I can come across as 'aggressive' when I'm excited; probably because, in typical AS fashion, I have little capacity for emotional moderation. :oops:

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mysassyself
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16 Sep 2010, 8:43 am

Additionally, in response the OP's original posts:

Quote:

1. We are a minority among minorities, and apparently not very well understood amongst our own "kind" or the psychiatrists, psychologists, and others who theoretically are supposed to help us.

Agreed. Male therapists in particular have an astoundingly bad understanding of AS in women, how it presents and how it can be integrated to result in better functioning.

Quote:

2. Women with AS are more likely to be brushed off as "cold" or "frigid" or "depressed" or misdiagnosed as having a mood disorder for which they are then improperly medicated.

yes.

Quote:

I , like some AS women, can be very emotionally expressive; 'too' emotionally expressive...

Quote:

I wear comfortable stuff nearly all the time. With careful shopping, I can have stuff that's cotton and comfortable and also looks good. A lot of the time I prefer jeans and stuff, which is fine. I can look good when I want to.

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5. Women are expected to wear makeup in society, which many women with AS also find difficult to tolerate.

I don't wear make up a lot, and I seem to do fine.

Quote:

Yeh, well I do agree, but I also think any job or partner that I get rejected on on the basis of looks is a job or partner not worth having :roll:

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7. Women with AS are more at risk of lonliness, because most women with AS do not have the social skills to form and maintain friendships with NT women (who are actually more hostile to "weird" women than "weird" men), and men they befriend as adults often have a relationship of a non-platonic nature in mind, and would not consider a platonic female friend on the same level as a platonic male friend, thus would exclude her from many social events that he would not exclude his male friends from.

The difficulty in forming friendships with NT women is underscored by the fact that many women with AS, having what is thought to be a "masculine" brain, and don't even share many common interests or perspectives with NT women.

Strongly agree with this ! !

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9. Many women with AS do not like to be touched, which can make forming a non-platonic relationship difficult even when she wants to be with the person.

Exactly. And thinking about how to communicate this, especially when you have communication problems in close relationships, is a b&%^h.

Quote:

I think this is so true, and is a major issue for women with AS. Every now and then I get an insight into how much I can be misinterpreted in these ways, and .. well, it's a little freaky. It doesn't change the solution, of finding people, whether male or female who obviously understand the real me, but it does give me some insight into times when I've had problems.

Quote:

11. There is little in the way of support for adults with AS, and far less in the way of support for women with AS.

Agreed.

Quote:

12. "Support" sites such as this are full of men who may or may not have AS but use this as a place to vent their frustrations with women, inevitably making this a hostile and non-supportive place for women with AS.

13. "Support" sites such as this are full of men with AS who minimize the difficulties of women with AS by proclaiming we have it so much easier, and failing to really stop and think and consider that perhaps we really don't, because we have all the same social deficits they do, while at the same time more social expectations are placed on us, and there are fewer safe people for us to make friends with.

I'm not saying we always have it worse than the men. We're less likely to be physically bullied in school and it's not nearly as socially inappropriate for us to cry in public, but we certainly don't have it any easier and I would really appreciate if those of you who think that we do, would stop.

I don't really feel the same way, but .. I peruse the site in a leisurely kind of way and meet my own needs as I go.

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nekowafer
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16 Sep 2010, 8:54 am

Most people in general - though women are a great example of this - can handle uncomfortable things better. Think corsets, and corseting in general. It is SO hot, but it can be incredibly uncomfortable. Obviously, throughout the years, many women have worn them and handled it just fine. Many women get used to it, their body molds to it. Which can be terrible for their health obviously. There will always be some pain for the "highest" of fashion. It's unfortunate, because I think a lot of people can look a lot better if they were just comfortable.

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16 Sep 2010, 9:18 am

Personally I have never expressed any view on who had it worse, AS guys or AS girls.

From this thread I'm much more aware of woman's issues, especially regarding being in the minority here and with clinicians.

I'd also like to apologise for the dickish behaviour that women constantly put up with

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16 Sep 2010, 5:27 pm

I think the majority of this list is accurate. At least, it's addressed the main reason why I've found it difficult to be a girl with ASD: women are expected to be more emotional and sensitive than men are. It's easier for a boy who likes trains to make (male) friends than it is for a girl who likes trains to make (female) friends. Growing up, all my friends have always been boys, and dorky girls. I have much more in common with men than with women, who rely on their strange social language of subtleties and drama to communicate.

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