No understanding of "authority"

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Incorrect. You have failed to take into account the supremacy of the individual.

I can somewhat relate. In defending myself, or my son, I have attempted to draw a distinction between what is considered defiance or disrespect for authority, and the autistic/asperger mindset. Defiance is demonstrated by someone who understands the social hierarchy, and chooses to disregard it, even though their "conscience", or cooperative instinct, tells them they should obey the authorities that have asserted themselves over them. This is not quite the case for someone with autism or asperger's. There is no sense of this hierarchy as being legitimate, so to disregard it makes sense. To equate this with defiance, or even sin, is ridiculous. My son will willingly listen to me as much as he trusts me-no more, no less. And as he gets older, I can totally imagine him not being in awe of the people he's supposed to be in awe of. And part of me will enjoy it entirely too much.

I recognize the authority legitimately granted to somebody by virtue of their position, which is not an emotional connection with the concept of authority, but a logical understanding of the concept. If I voluntarily agree to work for somebody and provide my services to them as a lower level employee, by virtue of the fact my abilities aren't on the a level that coalesces with the requirements of theirs, I accept that they have certain authority that I don't possess and that I don't have any claim to, such as the ability to request that somebody "Works the floor" by ringing up customers, sweeping the floor, stocking shelves and so on. I view somebody like say, the President, in a similar light, at least as far as specially granted powers and privileges by virtue of position is concerned. That is, even though it's myself and others doing the "Hiring" via majority rule, he's being hired into a position that requires a certain type of ability that most people don't have which, subsequently grants a certain type of authority that most everyday citizens aren't fit to lay claim to.

That said, while I'm not necessarily against authority, I am against the notion that anybody who possesses certain rightful authority is allowed to use that to grant onto themselves a whole new subset of powers completely unwarranted by his/her position. By any other name, that's still authoritarianism, whether it happens in a McDonald's or the highest echelons of government and that is a toxic ideology that has never and will never help anybody; history bears that out well. Your authority does and should give you certain warranted powers and privileges, but no more and no less. And if abuse of that power does occur, at any level of society, whether to me as an individual or to the general population, I won't lay on my back and play dead in deference to somebody's supposedly limitless authority because that's the "Natural" structure of society. I guess if you want to wrap this deal up real nice and put a bow on it, you could summarize my position here by saying I'm Pro-authority, don't have any problems understanding the concept or use of it, but vehemently anti-authoritarian because I don't blindly hold the idiotic belief that anybody in a position of authority is necessarily right or deserves to be excused when they do wrong and do believe that they need to have a proverbial "Spotlight" at the ready to highlight when they do things that are wrong, so that they can be held accountable.


Edit: Also, may be somewhat OT, but I should say I'm skeptical of the inequality of work, at least as far as their importance in terms of a business's operational capacity is concerned, which goes directly against the mainstream view that somebody who's more "Blue collar" is so vastly below somebody else "higher up" as far as their importance as a worker is concerned (which often leads people to the conclusion they should accept the fact that somebody like a manager's authority allows them to do/say whatever they please--be authoritarian, basically). A manager in a retail store and a grunt don't have jobs equal in terms of the special skill required, as evidenced by the fact most people can do that low level type of work and do, while it's harder to find people who can serve a managerial role, hence the higher pay, but both are equally important to the operations of a business, as evidenced by the fact that contingency plans for strikes do exist and that they have shut down businesses in the past by throwing a monkey wrench into the machine. That knowledge doesn't stop me from respecting that somebody's "above" me in some sense, to the extent that I know I can't do their jobs without extensive experience, experience that often requires training that I can't attain with great ease, but it does stop me from rolling over on to my back and allowing myself to be treated like crap. If that means I get thrown out like yesterday's garbage or prevents me from getting a job, so be it. Concerning work, my dignity is my first priority.

Last edited by Jordan87 on 19 Dec 2010, 4:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Many police officers get off on the idea of having authority it's why they take the job. Many celebrities would love to be treated more normally. I treat everyone equally because that's the way I like to be treated. You should be proud.

The only problem I can see is you have to be careful who you speak your mind to since obviously if it's someone who could be potentially dangerous you could be attacked for it. Like telling a group of gangsters in a dark alley at 1:00am to "watch their language" may be a bad idea.

I too have never had a conventional outlook on authority. It has ALWAYS had to be earned.

I was always told I didn't follow rules. I would question everything. If I didn't understand something, I would naturaly ask questions and was usualy scolded and told I needed to obey becuase I was the child. When I asked why I had to do something I was often told, "Because you're the child and I'm the parent". That never worked. My parents would yell at me to stop stimming and I would just igonore them. I would not do something just because my parents told me too. I would argue with my teachers if they got something wrong or if I saw no point in what they were trying to get me to do. I didn't understand the concept of punishment either and I only saw things that I got punished for as wrong and learned how to be sneaky when I stole things but I couldn't defend myself against bullies to save my life. I still don't really have a concept of authority but since I am an adult now, I don't have to take people's s**t anymore. The last time I shop lifted I was eleven and it wasn't even over five cents. I knew theft was wrong as a kid but I was so effected by my teachers emotional bullying, I believed I was a bad person and since stealing was a bad thing to do, it was okay. Stealing is bad, I am bad. So it is okay. Stealing was also a way to get revenge from clasmates who bullied me. Turning the other check is a concept my mother tried to teach me but I never understood it and it made me feel my mother wasn't fully aware of what was going on or didn't really care. I was told I had to earn the respect of my teachers and other classmates but I was still bullied. I could have let my teachers and other classmates litterly cut my chest open but they still would have treated me like garbage. And how come I had to earn their respect but they never had to earn mine? I will never submit to someone because they are supposedly higher than I am.

I'm of a similar view. But I like your description of it as coercive power, I think that's accurate.

I've had many problems relating to not respecting authority, similar to many other people in this thread. It just doesn't gel with my idea of Aspie logic that I'm supposed to respect someone just because of their job title. Erm, no, you're still just a person. If I think you're in the wrong, I'm not going to 'bow to your authority' I'm going to challenge what you said or did. Funnily enough, that doesn't seem to go down well with bosses! A couple of years ago, a different department manager (not my line manager) asked one his subordinates (who worked with me) to tell me off about something. He'd put my friend in an awkward situation, so I wasn't going to fall out with her for 'following orders' from her boss, so I went to him and told him that if he had a problem with me, he should take it up with my line manager as that was the appropriate channel of communication, it was inappropriate of him to get one of his underlings to tell me off when neither she nor him were my line manager. He apparently complained to my boss - not about what I was originally supposed to have done wrong (going to the toilet at an inopportune moment!) - but about the fact that I had seemingly challeged his authority by pointing out, correctly, what the appropriate channels and hierarchy were. And then my boss called *me* rude, abrupt and abrasive. ffs, I was actually right! And I wasn't prepared to kowtow to the non-existent authority over me of the manager of a different department.

People don't automatically get my respect because of their job title or what they do, they have to earn it. Well, everyone starts out with a modicum of general respect and I'll treat them with courtesy, but people don't keep my respect by virtue of their job title, they can easily lose it, or they can similarly gain more respect.

Did you tell her that?!? If so, I'll bet that went down well!

You're very smart for having that view.

In fact, psychologists now say that this type of conditioning parents force on their kids where they tell them to do everything they say because they're the parent is why the Milgram Experiment - where "ordinary" people become fine with torturing others because an authority figure tells them to do it - worked, and continues to work, so well. Click here for all the info on that.

Oh, yes, you've got that spot on!

You've made me remember that I was always being called defiant as a child!

How old is your son? I think it would probably be a good idea to explain to his school teachers the difference between defiance and disregarding or not being aware of a hierarchy and seeming to not have a respect for authority if something they request or order conflicts with his internal 'Aspie logic'. Otherwise he might get into a lot of conflict and trouble at school.

As well as explaining the difference, it would be good to then explain to the teachers how you deal with certain scenarios or 'flashpoints' and it would be good if you could educate his teachers to better understand him and where he's coming from. And emphasise the importance of explaining the logical reasoning behind instructions as opposed to just expecting that them being a person in a position of authority giving an order should suffice (as it probably would with non-Aspie kids).

The more they can understand him and the more they can 'speak his language' the better the outcome for your son and them.