19 Jan 2011, 2:34 pm
Black_tea wrote:
Mysty wrote:
Black_tea wrote:
Mysty wrote:
MathGirl wrote:
I strongly believe that you can't overcome AS... you probably had behaviours that appeared AS-like during your childhood, but they were not prominent enough to be pervasive. There are many, many people out there who exhibit AS-like behaviours and did so even more strongly when they were children, but they still have sufficient social awareness that they have learned instinctively, are able to hold a job, and are able to juggle social life with appropriate-age peers, school, and work. If the DSM criteria were to be blindly applied to them during their childhood by a non-professional, they would have probably been diagnosed with AS. However, everyone learns to be more flexible and more socially aware as they grow older. There are some people for whom it might take longer to learn everything, but eventually, they do. I don't think anyone on the spectrum is ever able to learn everything, but they are able to learn compensatory techniques that may mask their autistic behaviour for limited periods of time. You probably did not have AS in first place, but as you said, had many traits of it that made you "borderline" AS. So while it may have taken you longer to understand and apply the things that come naturally to most people, you were eventually able to do it.
To me, this sounds like circular logic. How do we know she didn't have AS? Because she overcame it. How do we know people can't overcome AS? Apparently, because we retroactively define those who overcame it as not having AS.
If someone fit the criteria as a child, then they had it. Maybe a different variation of it than those who truly can't overcome it. But, still, just as real. Their later experiences don't change the past.
There's a lot of variability on the autistic spectrum. That includes which traits we can overcome, and to what extent.
People with true AS can't overcome it completely because their brains are wired differently. Why can't it be possible for a kid to be quirky and a little socially awkward without it instantly being Asperger's? Especially if she grew out of those traits later on. If you have Asperger's, it means that you have significant issues with social interaction, communication, obsessive interests, etc. and you will continue to have them, no matter how much you adapt. You'll have to memorize scripts in order to have a normal conversation, learn to control yourself when you feel a sensory overload, consciously read about or have to deduce nonverbal cues in order to learn them...you get the idea. You may learn to function normally, but you still wouldn't be confused with a shy NT.
There's a reason why AS is considered a disorder, not just a couple of odd traits that pretty much everyone in the population has (except for those super-extroverted NT's that this forum talks about). If a kid has some AS traits that vanish with time, then guess what? They never had AS. And if they're doing well now, there's no reason to think their Asperger's will suddenly come back to haunt them when they're 50.
I didn't say that every kid that's quirky has Asperger's. I'm saying, Asperger's and autism are defined by the diagnostic criteria. If they fit them as a child, they had it as a child. You can't retroactively say, no, they didn't really have it, based on what happened latter. The black and white view that people with autism are "wired" differently and can't change their brains is NOT a part of the definition of autism. That's an opinion.
And "wired" is a metaphor. There's no wires in our brain. There's neurons. And those connections between neurons can and do change in adults.
Saying that only those who can't overcome their issues have autism doesn't magically make those who can overcome their issues not fit the diagnostic criteria.
Autism affects development, it doesn't halt it.
But if those connections between neurons can change, why is there such a firm belief that Asperger's is a disorder you're stuck with for life?
It's also a question of severity. If you overcame your issues naturally without making a conscious effort, that means they were never strong enough to qualify for an AS diagnosis. You may have had socialization problems because of shyness or social anxiety or a number of other things.
The weird thing is, when I was a kid and during most of high school, these issues did cause problems with my functioning...you could tell that something was "off" with me. I see it in childhood videos when I would talk for an hour straight, on my tiptoes, about television logos, and engage myself in very structured, atypical forms of sorting play. And an argument that I *would* make over me having AS is that when I learned these skills, none of it came naturally to me at first...even with being self taught, and a lot of of it still doesn't feel right. I "go through the motions" of being social because people expect that of me and my strong fear of embarrassment myself prevents me from making social mistakes. Maybe I was scared into erasing my AS traits, or simply hiding them. I don't know.
19 Jan 2011, 5:39 pm
19 Jan 2011, 5:39 pm
19 Jan 2011, 5:50 pm
Black_tea wrote:
Mysty wrote:
Black_tea wrote:
Mysty wrote:
MathGirl wrote:
I strongly believe that you can't overcome AS... you probably had behaviours that appeared AS-like during your childhood, but they were not prominent enough to be pervasive. There are many, many people out there who exhibit AS-like behaviours and did so even more strongly when they were children, but they still have sufficient social awareness that they have learned instinctively, are able to hold a job, and are able to juggle social life with appropriate-age peers, school, and work. If the DSM criteria were to be blindly applied to them during their childhood by a non-professional, they would have probably been diagnosed with AS. However, everyone learns to be more flexible and more socially aware as they grow older. There are some people for whom it might take longer to learn everything, but eventually, they do. I don't think anyone on the spectrum is ever able to learn everything, but they are able to learn compensatory techniques that may mask their autistic behaviour for limited periods of time. You probably did not have AS in first place, but as you said, had many traits of it that made you "borderline" AS. So while it may have taken you longer to understand and apply the things that come naturally to most people, you were eventually able to do it.
To me, this sounds like circular logic. How do we know she didn't have AS? Because she overcame it. How do we know people can't overcome AS? Apparently, because we retroactively define those who overcame it as not having AS.
If someone fit the criteria as a child, then they had it. Maybe a different variation of it than those who truly can't overcome it. But, still, just as real. Their later experiences don't change the past.
There's a lot of variability on the autistic spectrum. That includes which traits we can overcome, and to what extent.
People with true AS can't overcome it completely because their brains are wired differently. Why can't it be possible for a kid to be quirky and a little socially awkward without it instantly being Asperger's? Especially if she grew out of those traits later on. If you have Asperger's, it means that you have significant issues with social interaction, communication, obsessive interests, etc. and you will continue to have them, no matter how much you adapt. You'll have to memorize scripts in order to have a normal conversation, learn to control yourself when you feel a sensory overload, consciously read about or have to deduce nonverbal cues in order to learn them...you get the idea. You may learn to function normally, but you still wouldn't be confused with a shy NT.
There's a reason why AS is considered a disorder, not just a couple of odd traits that pretty much everyone in the population has (except for those super-extroverted NT's that this forum talks about). If a kid has some AS traits that vanish with time, then guess what? They never had AS. And if they're doing well now, there's no reason to think their Asperger's will suddenly come back to haunt them when they're 50.
I didn't say that every kid that's quirky has Asperger's. I'm saying, Asperger's and autism are defined by the diagnostic criteria. If they fit them as a child, they had it as a child. You can't retroactively say, no, they didn't really have it, based on what happened latter. The black and white view that people with autism are "wired" differently and can't change their brains is NOT a part of the definition of autism. That's an opinion.
And "wired" is a metaphor. There's no wires in our brain. There's neurons. And those connections between neurons can and do change in adults.
Saying that only those who can't overcome their issues have autism doesn't magically make those who can overcome their issues not fit the diagnostic criteria.
Autism affects development, it doesn't halt it.
But if those connections between neurons can change, why is there such a firm belief that Asperger's is a disorder you're stuck with for life?
It's also a question of severity. If you overcame your issues naturally without making a conscious effort, that means they were never strong enough to qualify for an AS diagnosis. You may have had socialization problems because of shyness or social anxiety or a number of other things.
I think the belief that Asperger's is a disorder you're "stuck with for life" comes from black and white thinking. Oversimplifying. Like, as if "stuck with it" or magically becoming NT are the only possibilities. But it's not that simple. Also, from thinking of Asperger's as a single thing, rather than a collection of traits defined by psychiatrists.
And even the idea, expressed here by some, that people with asperger's can overcome many of the traits for a while, but they may return, even that is a contrast to "stuck with it for life".
I believe in being realistic, not idealistic. And that means both acknowledging that change is possible, self improvement is possible, including for Aspies, but also acknowledging that some things about ourselves we have to accept and work with. And there's even an in-between here. Accepting something for now, but it still might change later, either for a while or for good.
19 Jan 2011, 8:23 pm
21 Jan 2011, 6:42 am
21 Jan 2011, 8:37 am
21 Jan 2011, 9:00 am
22 Jan 2011, 12:14 am
daydreamer84
Veteran
Joined: 8 Jul 2009
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,001
Location: My own little world
28 Jan 2011, 2:18 am
28 Jan 2011, 5:38 am
daydreamer84 wrote:
I've wanted to say this for some time ...I've been thinking about your situation since I read your post…I’ve just been busy with school. =)
I think the most parsimonious explanation is that you have AS or BAP
Think of it this way You could have: showed strong enough autistic tendencies as a child to be diagnosed and now just happen to suffer from severe social anxiety, impulsivity, executive function difficulties (which you described at work) etc. One could have all of these problems and a similar history as yours and all of these things could be unrelated (one due to a an LD, one to an anxiety disorder, and then you just happened to have more AS traits as a child than the average person etc.)but according to occams razor the simplest explanation is the best:
A simpler explanation is:
You have AS (or BAP) and so exhibited symptoms of AS as a child. Now as an adult you have worked very hard to overcome social difficulties....even though you have developed somewhat of a social intuition after years of hard work and good imitation skills it still isn't entirely natural for you so you are very anxious in social situations...perhaps hyper aware of transgressing social expectations....you're impulsivity may be caused by anxiety both socially and perhaps in regards to change/transitions in life ( mine certainly is)...and may also be related to executive dysfunction...and your" substance abuse" is a form of self medication (as suggested earlier by someone else on this forum). This is a simpler explanation because all of your symptoms/experiences are related and make sense in one framework. If you read Tony Atwood he discusses substance abuse as a possibility for adults with AS, and impulsivity is frequently mentioned in discussions of executive function problems related to AS (which also explains your problems at work as well...executive function problems that is). Anxiety has an extremely high rate of co morbidity with AS
You also should consider that you probably had many protective factors preventing you from a poor outcome with AS or BAP including:
1) you are a girl!! ! according to Tony Atwood many of the women he sees as adults have "symptoms (of AS )that our current diagnostic system is not sensitive enough to detect"
2) you have financial resources?
3) you have/ (had growing up) a good social support network-supportive family etc.
4) high intelligence
5) good language skills
You are a psychology student (so you must know about risk and protective factors and how much they can influence the development and course/outcome of mental/neurological disorders
I don't know if you should be considered to have BAP or AS but I definitely think you are on the spectrum...and like others on this thread have mentioned...your symptoms may increase later on in life with increased stress/ different circumstances etc......there are some symptoms of AS that had I hadn't exhibited since I was a child that have re-surfaced with a vengeance within the last couple of years (and I just turned 26!!) bsc of stress. I wouldn't have believed anyone who told me this would happen a few years before it did.
By the way I also have had problems with substance use and anxiety in social situations (although I don't think I had clinical social anxiety). I still have problems with impulsivity due to anxiety….I keep dropping courses in university…. impulsively at the first sign of difficulty!!
I think the most parsimonious explanation is that you have AS or BAP
Think of it this way You could have: showed strong enough autistic tendencies as a child to be diagnosed and now just happen to suffer from severe social anxiety, impulsivity, executive function difficulties (which you described at work) etc. One could have all of these problems and a similar history as yours and all of these things could be unrelated (one due to a an LD, one to an anxiety disorder, and then you just happened to have more AS traits as a child than the average person etc.)but according to occams razor the simplest explanation is the best:
A simpler explanation is:
You have AS (or BAP) and so exhibited symptoms of AS as a child. Now as an adult you have worked very hard to overcome social difficulties....even though you have developed somewhat of a social intuition after years of hard work and good imitation skills it still isn't entirely natural for you so you are very anxious in social situations...perhaps hyper aware of transgressing social expectations....you're impulsivity may be caused by anxiety both socially and perhaps in regards to change/transitions in life ( mine certainly is)...and may also be related to executive dysfunction...and your" substance abuse" is a form of self medication (as suggested earlier by someone else on this forum). This is a simpler explanation because all of your symptoms/experiences are related and make sense in one framework. If you read Tony Atwood he discusses substance abuse as a possibility for adults with AS, and impulsivity is frequently mentioned in discussions of executive function problems related to AS (which also explains your problems at work as well...executive function problems that is). Anxiety has an extremely high rate of co morbidity with AS
You also should consider that you probably had many protective factors preventing you from a poor outcome with AS or BAP including:
1) you are a girl!! ! according to Tony Atwood many of the women he sees as adults have "symptoms (of AS )that our current diagnostic system is not sensitive enough to detect"
2) you have financial resources?
3) you have/ (had growing up) a good social support network-supportive family etc.
4) high intelligence
5) good language skills
You are a psychology student (so you must know about risk and protective factors and how much they can influence the development and course/outcome of mental/neurological disorders
I don't know if you should be considered to have BAP or AS but I definitely think you are on the spectrum...and like others on this thread have mentioned...your symptoms may increase later on in life with increased stress/ different circumstances etc......there are some symptoms of AS that had I hadn't exhibited since I was a child that have re-surfaced with a vengeance within the last couple of years (and I just turned 26!!) bsc of stress. I wouldn't have believed anyone who told me this would happen a few years before it did.
By the way I also have had problems with substance use and anxiety in social situations (although I don't think I had clinical social anxiety). I still have problems with impulsivity due to anxiety….I keep dropping courses in university…. impulsively at the first sign of difficulty!!
I agree with a lot of this post, particularly the the part about how AS can affect girls. I suspect both myself and my husband have some form of ASD which we recognise in ourselves and each other (we have children also affected). If we were to counsel outside opinion I think most people would (and have) agreed that hubby has an ASD. A lot less would have the same opinion of me yet in some areas (sensory issues and socialising) I have more difficulty than my husband.
It's something I've thought about quite a bit recently and I think how externally aspie someone appears is often a social construct. My husband has the luxury of doing his own thing most of time and thinking about himself. We have 4 children and I am the one who has to multi-task, deal with work, schools, appts, shopping, housework, other family members etc...this probably makes me outwardly appear more NT than him because he can opt out more than I can , even though I would love to.
Just a few thoughts, I'll stop now before this turns into a gender roles rant
