Fast Intelligence versus Slow Intelligence
Actually this demonstrates my point exactly. To anyone new to mathematics the questions they might ask is:
What is i?
What is ^?
If you don't know these things before hand it impairs your ability to answer the question. Or you might know, but you've not used it in so long you have to spend time racking your brain trying to remember. This is why practice, practice, practice, increases your measurable intelligence. If you practice these tests and get used to the questions. Then all that is left is your ability to process the questions themselves thus arriving at an answer. Lets breakt he process down shall we? A question's answer time is based on the following factors.
RT + MR + Pr = TT
RT = Read Time (seconds)
MR = Memory Recall time (seconds)
Pr = Processing (seconds)
TT = Total Time
First you have to read the question. Then you have to recall what all the symbols and variables mean/are then you have to process this data to generate an answer, the time it takes to complete these steps become TT or total time.
Now, you can reduce the amount of time it takes you to read the question, if you practice reading. This is demonstrated by a young child reading for the first time, compared to their future self who's had plenty of practice.
Next is the time it takes to recall, or understand what the different elements of the problem are. If you've not using ^ in years, then it will take longer to remember what to do with ^ when compared to yourself who's used it mere moments ago.
Now you've got that sorted out you can proceed to crunch the numbers themselves which are random (hopefully) and thus unexpected. Again practising this, ensuring your brain is used to the process ensures the minimum amount of time has past answering that question.
By practising, you can increase your speed to the limit of your personal ability. If you do this and still lose to someone else, then they are simply more intelligent then you are. That's life, get over it.
So if you want to raise your intelligence, practice.
You improve your result on the tests, but your intelligence only slightly. Your brain has learned to do well in test, but nothing else, rendering the results invalid.
If you want to be more intelligent, then read books.
I agree about the books bit! But none of the rest. You've got a very idealistic view here. Intelligence needs to be measurable. If you want to prove your as intelligent or more intelligent than someone else, you must demonstrate it. This means you practice and hone your skills to the point were you can no longer improve upon them. Once you have done this, you can then fairly compare your skills in an intelligence test against someone else. I understand that you might not want to spend your life doing this, but until you do. You're only guessing at your own intelligence as is everyone else. You call it "being good at tests" But at the end of the day, if you run faster then someone else in a race. Then you are faster than they are. If you row faster then someone else, or sail a boat faster, or lift more weight then another, then you've quantified yourself against another person.
Intelligence has to be measurable, otherwise it's a meaningless word that imparts no useful information, other than as a general and very vague reference point in conversation.
lol, within the rules of that test you should have double checked everything yes!
I am very quick verbally, but slow mathematically. This year in math, I was the last to hand in my worksheets often. I got how to do the work, I just couldn't do it quickly.
All this means is that you're less emotionally stable than the others. I expect you do the usual put it off to the last moment, I can't do this, struggle with feelings roller-coaster ride. I arrive at this conclusion based on that fact that you're not consistently being the last person to hand in a work sheet. Your usage of the word often indicates there have been multiple occasions were you were not the last person to hand in your work sheet at all.
I expect if you learn to focus, and reduce the pressure you put yourself under you'll be as fast as anyone else. I recommend learning relaxation techniques. After all if most of your brain is going OMG OMG OMG I CAN'T DO THIS OMG then it's only logical you're using less than your full ability.
Positive thinking people!
If you're emotional, learn to control your feelings.
If you're slow, practice until you're fast.
Being Non-NT doesn't mean you can't do anything as well as any NT.
So there's no such thing as Fast vs Slow intelligence. There's only people who practice and put the effort in, and those that don't.
Intelligence has to be measurable, otherwise it's a meaningless word that imparts no useful information, other than as a general and very vague reference point in conversation.
While I do think intelligence can be improved through exercising it (and through exercise, period), I don't agree that this has anything to do with intelligence tests. Intelligence tests just measure a very narrow slice of cognitive abilities. Practicing at IQ tests over and over will definately increase your score as you learn how to anticipate the types of questions they ask and memorize facts they will require you to know. But that isn't going to increase your real world ability to solve problems (problems that don't occur on IQ tests). It's like doing crossword puzzles over and over and thinking that will improve your ability to understand symbolism in novels.
IQ tests are meant to be a proxy for how well people are able to solve real world problems. You can improve your intelligence by challenging yourself to solve those real world problems. Doing so might improve your IQ test score or it might not. But if you spend all your time practicing IQ tests while other people are challenging themselves to learn a new language, learn how to make dinner or a car engine and other real world problems, you will ultimately be "smarter" on paper but they will have gone farther in improving their actual intelligence by tackling real world problems that IQ tests were only ever meant to be a proxy for.
Oodain
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i dont believe in the concept of intelligence.
thought patterns on the other hand are very important.
i.e.
person A = y intellignece
person B= 2y intellignece
person A might reach the solution required before person B, if his thought pattern acconmodates the problem.
so yes there is a form of intelligence, but i dont think it can be simplified to a numerical value.
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Here is what you call "fast" and "slow" intelligence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_and_ ... telligence
Science beat you to it
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Sweetleaf
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If you're emotional, learn to control your feelings.
If you're slow, practice until you're fast.
Being Non-NT doesn't mean you can't do anything as well as any NT.
So there's no such thing as Fast vs Slow intelligence. There's only people who practice and put the effort in, and those that don't.
That is intresting, because a lot of times even when I think I am getting things done quickly.......it still appears slow to other people. I lost my last job over this....I mean it seems like your trying to suggest that If someone struggles with these things its completely their fault and will for sure improve with practice and effort.
I don't know if you have any idea how frusterating it is to have people tell you to put more efffort into something when you are putting all the effort you have into it. But then no one believes you so you get labeled as lazy.
Which is a completely arbitrary definition that says nothing about what "intelligence" actually is. You've given me no reason to accept your personal definition of "intelligence."
What "intelligence" actually is comes down to a matter of opinion. What thinking styles are "better" than others also comes down to a matter of opinion.
It already is.
What does being "productive" have to do with being "intelligent?" And what exactly is the definition of "productive?" Is a guy with an IQ of 175 who doesn't have a job and lives with his mother, having contributed nothing to society in terms of ideas, inventions, or art, "intelligent" or not?
1) Ability to complete a task.
2) Speed at which you can complete that task.
3) The number of tasks you are able to complete.
Which is fine, except that is an arbitrary definition of "intelligence" based on your personal preferences, and, unsurprisingly, it reflects your skills and abilities. You've given me no reason to accept your description as the definitive version of "intelligence."
All you've done is increase your speed at taking IQ tests. You have yet to give me a reason why I should consider the speed at which you take an IQ test to be the definitive quality of "intelligence."
You want to be good at something, practice. You want to be quick at something, practice. You want to moan and complain that someone better then you, delude yourself that you're just as clever if you'd only try! Then you're wasting your time, and everyone elses time.
Nothing in life is free. Work for it, or shutup. Unless you want to be a champion moaner, in which case carry on practising!
Now let the emotionalisms and denial begin! Remember if you say the same things over and over enough times, you might just start to believe it yourself , laters!
*sigh*
Why is it that emotional, aggressive people are always the ones that accuse everyone else of being "emotional?"
Anyway, I'm not "moaning." I'm a slow thinker and I'm perfectly fine with that. "Intelligence" is a fuzzy, useless concept to me. If it gives you a sense of pride to define "intelligence" in a way that benefits your particular skill set, then have at it. Personally, I'm not a competitive person and I have very little interest in comparing myself to others. There are many things I'm very good at and many things at which I am not good at, and that's as much consideration as I've given the issue. I'm perfectly willing to grant that "fast thinkers" posses a very useful skill and are good at things I'm not good at.
The impression I'm getting from you is you won't be happy until us "slow thinkers" admit we're dumber than you. Being as non-competitive as I am, your desire to be "better" is a very alien to me.
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IQ tests are meant to be a proxy for how well people are able to solve real world problems. You can improve your intelligence by challenging yourself to solve those real world problems. Doing so might improve your IQ test score or it might not. But if you spend all your time practicing IQ tests while other people are challenging themselves to learn a new language, learn how to make dinner or a car engine and other real world problems, you will ultimately be "smarter" on paper but they will have gone farther in improving their actual intelligence by tackling real world problems that IQ tests were only ever meant to be a proxy for.
I'm inclined to agree with you.
I don't know if you have any idea how frusterating it is to have people tell you to put more efffort into something when you are putting all the effort you have into it. But then no one believes you so you get labeled as lazy.
Those of us in the learning disabled community run across the, "You just have to try harder!" attitude a lot. Depending on who's talking, it's usually either a function of political correctness ("We can all be whatever we want to be!"), or an insult ("Ha-ha ur dummer than i am lol!!").
Apparently, we could all also cure our AS by "trying harder" to socialize and be normal. When it comes to us "slow types," just remember, as my urban friends are fond of saying: haters gonna hate.
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-XFG (no longer a moderator)
Verdandi
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If you're emotional, learn to control your feelings.
If you're slow, practice until you're fast.
Being Non-NT doesn't mean you can't do anything as well as any NT.
So there's no such thing as Fast vs Slow intelligence. There's only people who practice and put the effort in, and those that don't.
That is intresting, because a lot of times even when I think I am getting things done quickly.......it still appears slow to other people. I lost my last job over this....I mean it seems like your trying to suggest that If someone struggles with these things its completely their fault and will for sure improve with practice and effort.
I don't know if you have any idea how frusterating it is to have people tell you to put more efffort into something when you are putting all the effort you have into it. But then no one believes you so you get labeled as lazy.
I think his comments about emotions are completely out of left field. What kind of person can intuit someone's emotional life from a few words on an internet forum?
Everyone who tries that on me gets it wrong.
I think his comments about emotions are completely out of left field. What kind of person can intuit someone's emotional life from a few words on an internet forum?
Everyone who tries that on me gets it wrong.
I'll answer this with another quote.
I am very quick verbally, but slow mathematically. This year in math, I was the last to hand in my worksheets often. I got how to do the work, I just couldn't do it quickly.
this has been mentioned by others several times throughout this thread on both pages 1 and 2.
----
Which is a completely arbitrary definition that says nothing about what "intelligence" actually is. You've given me no reason to accept your personal definition of "intelligence."
Fairly simple statement. Intelligence is the act if solving a problem. At the end of the day, we judge what something is by it's affect on the world. No one knows what Gravity exactly is, but we can measure it in geforce. Thus we view gravity, something that emits no viable light, by a falling object.
... ok I read the rest of your post XFilesGeek, as far as I can tell you've basically said:
"I don't know what intelligence is, I just know you're wrong."
To which, I'll keep it simple. If you don't know what intelligence is, how do you know I'm wrong?
@second XFilesGreek Post
Apparently, we could all also cure our AS by "trying harder" to socialize and be normal. When it comes to us "slow types," just remember, as my urban friends are fond of saying: haters gonna hate.
I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that you consider AS (which I assume to be Asperger Syndrome) to be a learning disability?
Which is interesting if true. I have Asperger Syndrome. My dad had it too! He scored 138 on his official menser test. I only scored 122. What's even more interesting is that I myself was placed in the remedial classes up until GCSE when my parents managed to convince the school to give me a chance. I walked away with A's B's and C's. The lowest score I got was 1 D in a subject I had little interest in. Electronics and science were my highest scoring subjects.
And you know what? I didn't learn a lick of it from school. Mostly they just repeated times tables until I was so bored I stopped bothering. I learned mathematics from computer programming. Physics from electronics. While they had me doing times tables over and over again I was at home with a soldering iron, design sheets, and programming games using the BBC Master. I barely stayed awake in Electronics classes because I know most of what they were teaching. My english was largely learned writing dark and depressing poetry, and obsessively reading Terry Pratchett novels. My design skills learned drawing up fictional design schematics of starships from star trek. My computer skills exploded when I got my first PC which I built from scratch with my fathers aid. This alone secure me a job as soon as I left school.
School and education expects any shape to fit into a round hole. But you don't need to play by their rules.
P.s. in my first IQ test, I scored a dismal 78. So practice really does pay off.
So if AS is a learning disability, I'll have another one please!
Sweetleaf
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I don't know if you have any idea how frusterating it is to have people tell you to put more efffort into something when you are putting all the effort you have into it. But then no one believes you so you get labeled as lazy.
Those of us in the learning disabled community run across the, "You just have to try harder!" attitude a lot. Depending on who's talking, it's usually either a function of political correctness ("We can all be whatever we want to be!"), or an insult ("Ha-ha ur dummer than i am lol!!").
Apparently, we could all also cure our AS by "trying harder" to socialize and be normal. When it comes to us "slow types," just remember, as my urban friends are fond of saying: haters gonna hate.
Yeah I tried to try harder most of my life, it might be why I am so burnt out now......because I spent most of my childhood trying to be more social and be more normal and all of that. I mean I was always 'working on' some flaw of mine it was ridiculous. But yeah there are some things no amount of effort or practice will help.......I mean I can't just up and make my brain process things quicker if thats not how my thought process works. but the thing people don't realise is the reason for that is the fact that I always have a lot of things going through my mind.......its not a lack of intelligence that causes me to respond slowly its more like I am distracted by everything going on internally.
Verdandi
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Okay, I don't see how you intuited an emotional state, or that the poster herself is overly emotional. I had seen that quote already, but all she said was that she was under pressure, which is generally an external factor, not an internal emotional factor.
The time limit is valid, because it's measuring fluid intelligence, so without following the time limit the test results lose all meaning. That being said however; "intelligence texts" are pretty much useless for anything other than predicting likely outcomes in academic/school achievement (and I say likely, not definite).
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And that's still just your arbitary definition. Again, you haven't supported your assertion that this is the "correct" definition of intelligence, nor do I see why the speed with which one manages to complete an IQ test has any bearing on their problem-solving ability.
Not comparible to "intelligence." The effects of gravity are the same no matter who is doing the measuring and will most likely behave according to observed principles. What is considered "problem solving" will vary between cultures and individuals; therefore, not much of a standard to go by. Most cultures and people cannot even agree as to what constitutes a "problem."
Gravity is an objective property of the universe. "Intelligence" is a human-invented description applied to various people based on cultural values and personal preference.
"I don't know what intelligence is, I just know you're wrong."
To which, I'll keep it simple. If you don't know what intelligence is, how do you know I'm wrong?
That's not what I said.
I said that you presented an arbitrary definition of "intelligence," declared that your's is the "correct" definition, and then deemed that anyone who meets the criteria for your particular version is "smarter" than anyone who doesn't.
Feel free to provide me with a reason that your definition is "correct," otherwise, it's no more "correct" than any other hypothesis of what constitutes "intelligence." If you make a claim, the onus is on you to provide the supporting evidence. So far, your argument seems to be, "This is intelligence because I say so."
No, I don't.
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Last edited by XFilesGeek on 20 Mar 2011, 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One thing I've noticed is that many people don't seem to consider the brain as a physical organ with physical properties.
Granted, it's a mysterious organ that scientists are still trying to figure out, but it's still beholden to the laws that govern all of our other body parts. I can't make a severed limb grow back through "practice" and sheer force of will, can I? No. So, if my brain lacks certain connections, or becomes injured, or is simply organized in a way contrary to what society values, I can't just snap my fingers and force my very physical brain into a new shape.
Anyway, as I've said before, I'm good at many things and bad at many things. Like most people. I have little inclination to tear down the mountains just to fill up the valleys, especially when my only motivation is that some people in my society don't appreciate my talents. "Society" can go pound sand.
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"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
Defeatism, and vanity. Why should other people appreciate your talents? Learn to be happy, knowing you did your best. Performing like a chimp, failing to get praise, then cursing society for your own feelings is where most people seem to go wrong here.
I do a job, for the satisfaction of a job well done. I've completed dozens of projects, 80% of which were failures, just makes the mediocre successes and single big success all the more worth it when they turned up.
If you think negative, then you're self defeating from the start. If you think positive, and you still fail, at least you're happier then you would have been.
Remember you're one person among billions, who much do you really expect to stand out anyway?
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