Book About Lack of Empathy

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I admit, I haven´t read the book, so I don´t know what´s written in it. I´m just worried about it.....(and I don´t feel particularly compelled to buy the book either, frankly....)



As anbuend mentioned, maybe that´s not a good thing? There does seem to be evil in the world. And as I mentioned earlier, I had read somewhere that it´s a fallacy that most criminals have a lack of empathy. Many of them do have good "mind reading" skills, but they choose to commit violent acts. Some people, apparently, get a thrill, or a rush of adrenaline, from violence.

kfisherx wrote:

Hmmmm, I guess what really stuck out for me was the "mostly negative results". And as the last part of that sentence is not only written in a way as to imply lesser importance, it´s also written as a question, so it´s unclear what the actual conclusion is.

Other people's feelings.

Neurotypical: knows and cares.
Autistic-spectrum: doesn't know, but still cares.
Narcissist: knows but doesn't care.
Sociopath: doesn't know and doesn't care.

These get mixed up in such discussions, but remain utterly distinct...

(from my blog:
http://monkeypickedaspie.blogspot.com/2 ... pathy.html

I dislike the notion that we "see people as objects", I realize that people have feelings, thoughts and opinions. I realize that a pen doesn't have thoughts, (even though I might say the pen "thinks I don't want to write right now", I'm just using it as an expression, kind of). I realize that other people have thoughts.

About the Extreme Male Brain theory, I don't tend to be "male" at all. I have a low EQ and a low SQ, but my SQ is slightly lower than my EQ. More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathizing–systemizing_theory

By the way, I have seen articles titled: "Children with Asperger's are likely to be X" and then the article starts out: Studies have shown that those who lack empathy are more likely to be X then the general population". So, lacking empathy has now become a synonym for Asperger's?

Yes, I´ve seen this kind of thing too! I don´t like it either.

What´s almost worse is that sometimes I hear people say things like "he´s rude and doesn´t care about other people´s feelings. He must have Asperger´s".

Yes, though that has long been the predominant theoretical model of what autism is. Baron-Cohen and 2 other professionals whose names I can't recall ATM came up with the "autistics lack a theory of mind" theory in the 90's. The idea of lacking empathy is derived from that. The wiki on "theory of mind" s pretty good at explaIning the theory. (Not that I like the theory or think it is the universally true or represents the core of autism. But unfortunately it is basically "the" theory, amongst researchers & other professionals, and has been for a long time).

From my experience it's more like this...

Neurotypical: knows how to make others feel like he/she cares regardless of whether he/she actually cares.
Autistic-spectrum: does not know how to make others feel like he/she cares, even when he/she both knows and cares.

I made the mistake of telling my husband he did not have empathy for me when I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. I was looking for someone to know what to say and do all the time. He threw a book or something and screamed he had empathy more than most people. But at the same time told me I was lazy and weak. He once said if he were in my position he would deal with it better. This is the last thing I wanted to hear at the time. I needed support and love. I wanted him to ask how I was feeling and if I needed anything. I needed him to hug me and let me cry on his shoulder if needed. I find it so hard to communicate these feelings to him. So I don't now. I wish he could love the real me but he has this idea of me as the strong woman he met. We did not have the vow in our wedding of in good times and BAD, but I expected he understood the unexpected nature of life. We have been together for 17 years and some of the things I loved most about him in the beginning were the aspie traits. I did not realize what it was until our daughter was diagnosed. I try to teach her empathy every day. Try to imagine you are the other person for awhile. What are they feeling? Did they cut you off while driving because they are jerks or having a bad day? I'll always give them the benefit of the doubt.

Try to remember that when one family member becomes ill, the other people around them often react with their own stress about the illness. (Especially if the dynamics of the relationship change, i.e., you were normally the strong one, now you need support). I´m not trying to minimize your illness and what you went (or are going) through, and I´m not trying to say that his reaction was "right"; it´s just that these things tend to happen, regardless if one is AS or NT. I had my own experience in 2009, when I was diagnosed with cancer. At around the same time, my mother also died- (in fact, she died as I was just barely recovering from my cancer operation). People around me- mostly NT- couldn´t always give me the support I wanted, as they were dealing with both of these stresses too, though in a different way. Add to that the fact that the people around you don´t really know what your illness feels like if it´s something they haven´t experienced themselves. In addition, my theory is that Aspies and NTs both react very differently to these kinds of things anyway, which makes the whole "theory of mind" problem more complicated. It´s as if we are people who come from 2 very different cultures.

If you want a hug from your husband, I would recommend that you tell him. It can be very hard for Aspies to read the "I need a hug" cues, especially because in the situations that NTs like to be hugged, often Aspies DON´T like to be touched, hence the theory of mind gap. He might feel helpless and not know what to do, so he might appreciate it. In fact, his making comments like "if I were in your position I would deal with it better" might be a stressful reaction to his own feeling of helplessness and frustration. (I don´t know this for sure, it´s just one possibility).

In any case, I think these problems with empathy and illness seem to be quite common, and I can tell you it works both ways! Just thought I´d mention that because I learned, through my own experience, that people can seem harsh when they are distressed about an illness. I tend to take things literally, so I forget that a comment may not be intended the way it sounds.

I read the book over the weekend. Simon Baron Cohen is actually rather kind to people with autism and Asperger's syndrome in this book. He describes us as 'hyper-moral'. I am not too sure that we have 'zero empathy', as he suggests, but he is in no way suggesting that people with autism are in any way bad. He subdivides people who he describes as having 'zero empathy' into 'zero-positives' and 'zero-negatives'. We, apparently, are the 'zero-positives'.

There was a study recently that said that autistic people have just about the same affective (emotional) empathy as NTs, but less cognitive (knowing what people are thinking) empathy than NTs.

SBC is too wedded to theory, too wedded to tools that reinforce the theory, too wedded to ignoring people in favor of theory about those people, I think.

There is a short article by Baron Cohen in the New Scientist http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... -evil.html although you need to log in / buy a copy (pg 32) to read the whole thing.

He distinguishes between cognitive empathy and affective empathy. He also identifies the intent of an action as important - for instance attempting to communicate by hitting another person, as opposed to attempting to harm another person.

He doesn't have to tie in everything he does in his professional life to autism, does he?
I mean, he is going to, but not every little thing he writes about has tor relate back to autism.
He's not blatantly saying "autistic people are evil."

~

Mind putting it up for download somewhere? Or screenshotting? Or something?

Does he distinguish between them in autistic people? My understanding is that he says autistic people are incapable of empathy.

I found the book quite interesting, but I think that Baron-Cohen has a rather fixed idea of Asperger's syndrome. Not everyone with Asperger's syndrome (AS) is the same. There is a group of autistic traits and people with AS express these traits to varying degrees. Some people with AS find understanding others and socialising easier than do others with AS, while some with AS have particular difficulties coping with change. The impression I got from the book is that all people with AS have no clue how to 'read' or interact with other people, which is not strictly true.