No, We are Not Normal

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First of all, "Normal" is a null word. Everyone has their own standard of normal. There are things that are considered normal (for example, musical talent) that occur less often than things that are considered "abnormal" (such as homosexuality). There are things that are normal in some parts of the world that are considered abnormal in other parts of the world (ranging from casual nudity to mayonaise on french fries).

Ultimately, whether or not something is considered normal is decided by the person who is using the word, and judged against their standards of "normal". So to expect an NT to see what we are as normal is expecting too much, and to expect us to see NTs as "weird" is pretty natural. Blaming the NTs is stupid. Expecting the NTs to modify their world according to our whim is dreaming. Thinking that they're jerks because they're not interested in doing things to suit us is just absolute damnfoolery.

What worries me is the trend of blaming the NTs for our problems. Oh, sure, some of them are absolute expletives, but some of them are pretty darned cool. My wife, for example. And I've noticed a few people on these boards who have some of the same tendencies I can't stand among NTs-- most notably superiority complexes, and the notion that "disagreeing with me is opressing me."

We have a disability. Yes, through a weird quirk of neurology, it's a disability that comes with advantages in the case of a lot of us, in the form of advanced intelligence and/or savant abilities. Some of us even have very few downsides, but I can tell you right now, I'm not one of those. I've got an affinity for computers, which is great, but on the other hand I overload in crowds, can never remember to pay my bills, and I have real difficulties relating to other people. I tend to spend most of time in my cave (my nickname for whatever room my computer is set up in), and when I'm not there, there's usually part of me that's terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought.

This is normal.... for me. But it's silly to expect anyone else to see it that way.

"Less than human" ? WTF?

This is the real problem and crux of the matter. Either 1.) you are an as*hole NT, or 2.) you hate yourself so much you can't think outside your own box.

Either way you've got a problem and need help. And maybe meds.

Last edited by Alicorn on 19 Dec 2006, 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Where did I ever say someone was not morally responsible for their own actions. Oh that's right, I never did say that. Don't try putting words in my mouth.



*Whine!*

Explaining the facts of a situation is not whining. Try re-reading my post without letting your feelings get in the way.



Considering the assanine assumptions you and gumb-ball machine have made about my post it's obvious that some people will never 'get it' no matter how easily it's explained to them.



I couldn't stop laughing when I read this. Ass-u-ming just makes an ass out of you.

It was an editing mistake and it has been corrected.

To the new members, welcome to the forum!

You are perfectly normal, just aspie wannabes.

How do you know that?

I agree with that.

With due respect, disagreement, even with the orthodoxy, by itself does not infer whether or not I am an aspie (presuming you, among others, are referring to me). From what I understand, the word aspies is simply a shortening of the term "Asperger's Syndrome." I can promise to you that I have been diagnosed with it (among other things) although you only have my word on that. Perhaps some people view Aspies as some sort of "culture" that has a prerequisite of views that are required. That would be unfortunate as that would discourage dialogue on important issues.



I second that.

This much I agree with. Although autism complicates things for me, because my emotions tend to be very raw.



This, on the other hand, is incorrect. Social awkwardness is a part of being autistic. You speak of living in an NT society as if there were ever anything else, which there hasn't been, with the possible and extremely recent exception of forums such as these. Futhermore, I imagine a society of Aspies would still be rife with awkwardness, but that's really beside the point. At the end of the day our condition causes us to be socially awkward in the only societies that are out there. You're blaming the society when it is in fact our own wiring that creates this problem.

One of the biggest problems I had is coming to terms with the fact that sometimes, yeah, the problem is me. I don't understand, and I may never understand, but that doesn't mean I can deny the facts. I actually hate twelve step programs, but they've got it right on the first step-- admitting that you have a problem. Now that I understand that loud music and crowds are what make me so damned twitchy, I can avoid them. Now that I understand I am genetically predisposed to understand computer systems, I can get off my goddamn high horse and stop treating non-computer people like morons just because they don't get it. Now that I understand how my emotions tend to work, I can spot situations where I'm going to go flying off the handle well in advance, and take steps to avoid it. (Well, sometimes.) Now that I understand that it's better to shut up sometimes, I can understand why I keep getting in trouble when I don't. Still working on that one, too.

The notion that there is nothing wrong with us is morally correct but factually wrong. There are really cool benefits to being on the spectrum. If speculation is correct, then Aspies have altered the course of history on at least three occassions-- Newton, Tesla, and Einstein. (Let's please not get into a big discussion about who else on this thread.) It is conceivable that we may someday build our own society, with social and technological inventions to correct for our shortcomings. We may carve out a new normal. Of course, then we have to worry about constant reinforcement of the autism gene, which is likely to result in lower and lower functioning positions on the spectrum.

Let's be honest with ourselves. We are not quite right. For some of us, it's a benefit-- I make a pretty comfortable living off my computer talents-- but even for us there are drawbacks. There are limitations that we must challenge, and there are limitations we must accept. A person who whose leg didn't form right is not a bad person, and our society has developed some support mechanisms that enable him to lead a productive life. Now that ASDs are popping up everywhere, we will hopefully see more of that kind of support for ourselves, as well. But that doesn't mean "there's nothing wrong" with us, just as there is, in fact, something wrong with the guy with the bad leg.

The NTs don't have to live in our world. They can pay us to take care of their computers. But we have to live in theirs. Blaming our issues on the "insensitivity" of NTs is just mewling. We, in fact, are insensitive to many social conventions. They treat us poorly because to them we are arrogant, obnoxious, etc. It doesn't make them right, but it is our shortcomings that set the situation up.

Arg. I'm starting to ramble. Stopping now.

Alicorn, I know this may be difficult to understand but I was using the word you in the general sense, not the personal sense. In other words, I was not referring to you, but to all people who fit the description of what I was talking about. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. But you don't have to be beligerant. I wasn't attacking you and if you felt attacked I am sorry. Perhaps you should do what you asked me to do, and read what I said in the manner in which it was written.

I am not feeling the love, Alicorn. Are you having a bad day? week? Why so angry?

Hahaa, this is one reason I love communicating with other Aspies.
"Emotions blind you! Stick to the facts, man!"

Anyway...since I am too tired atm to get into a very deep thinking on the subject (crashing in a minute), I'll just express the topmost thought on my mind:

Even if the world is changing, it still feels sometimes like a feat to be a woman in "The big boys' club" (wow, how original ), so many things in society are still formed after male needs and tendencies that it can get pretty frustrating (not to mention being AS on top of that). So what the focus should be is to observe that just like men and women, NT's and AS' are worth just the same, despite our different needs or neurological tendencies.
No one is "less human" or to blame for the pain of the other (face it - most problems are just lying there for starters, and we just keep tossing them at each other). We just function differently, and that should be taken into observation when designing something for the public, which includes both types.
So stop dissing each other and unite for a solution, we have a problem here, let's fix it!

Absolutely.

I beleive part of the problem comes from our own laziness as a society... as a species (and by species, I mean our current, actual subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens).
We show the mainstream media (the clever, manipulative H. s. sapiens that they are!) what we like to watch / listen to / play with, and they serve it right back up to us all shiny and shrink-wrapped. And the mindless drivel they spew at us in this marketable format is what's considered "normal"... but in reality, it's so far from the truth it's not even funny.

No one is completely "normal". There's so many disorders out there it would be fun to count them just to see the magnificent list you could come up with!

However, when someone shows a marked difficulty in an area of development that hinders them in any way, to me, the logical and humane thing to do would be to first figure out what the cause is using the most accurate, empirical science possible, then attempting to deal with the negative aspects of that person's life in the most non-intrusive way possible while playing up whatever is positive about said person's condition.

However, I'm no utopian. I'm not "normal" if I compare myself to most people, and that's made me feel pretty crappy at times, but within some groups, I feel as though I am (well, here on Wrong Planet, anyways...)!
And that's better than what I've had so far.

I try to give some answer to the first post (JimServo). I think we meet here, in the discussion of normality, some important knots. Genetic structures and environement. "Normality" as a category to classify people.

I am convinced that being socially apt is something that is derived from the genetic endowement. But I am also convinced that to be able to draw caricatures (that is to be able to get the abnormal traits in someone’s face) requires a sensibility genetically endowed in some part of the brain, the same holds for the capacity to memorize and reproduce, or create music, or intervene through interpretation in some piece of music. Creative interpretation of existing musical pieces is like some people talking among themselves over our heads: Glenn Gould, for example, is not considered a faithful interpreter but is all the same considered a great musician.

Now here comes culture. Culture may value musicians talking among themselves with virtuoso creativity, at least in some circles. Or it may not. If culture is deaf to this kind of musical conversations (and among Chinese child laborers there is not much space for this kind od sophisticated conversation, and not even among laborers in North Carolina meat factories), people like Glenn Gould (or Walt Kelly of Pogo, or Miles Davies of “Kind of Bue”) might end their life in a mine or in a bedlam or lying drunk in the Bowery. The way Glenn Gould could talk with other people was through music, for all the rest he was autistic and inept.

Further, and given also these cultural factors, I think that 1. There is not a clear cut boundary between normal and socially defective people. 2. People substantially autistic are in a much greater number than we think and certainly many more than those diagnosed as AS or autistic. I am sure, for example, that many people who have suffered atrociously from their parents treatment, from their family life, had some autistic or semi-autistic parents, and that their atrocious treatment is due to the autism of their parents. They have probably inherited some autistic traits from their parents, but moreover their social ineptitude has produced much more suffering because of the communicative ineptitude of their parents to meet their problems. Someone who has autistic children could cope with their predicament only if he/she has more sensitivity. If they have less, their tasks as parents is very difficult, if not for their fault.

Finally the extreme division of labor of modern society has created many jobs requiring some form of autism to be executed withou qualms. Think of the drill sergeant, the accountant, people managing military prisons or conducting the espionnage business (called, improperly, "intelligence").

Incidentally, the criteria for establishing the so called IQ (which is also advertised here in WP abundantly) are the perfect example of a culture putting a premium on a shallow form of intelligence. Intelligence is sensibility more than prowness in logics.

Last edited by paolo on 20 Dec 2006, 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

hey brahs and sisters.

no man, woman or child is normal. we are all different individuals so we are normal in that regard. who wants to be a normal person. damn any man who tells me i am not normal, damn any man who says i have not as much right to live as he does. damn him. i will stand forth with my brothers and sisters and live my life how i must.

the issue is here, people tell us were not normal.

i will tell you something WE ARE NORMAL BECAUSE WE ARE INDIVIDUALS. some psycologist looks at a sheet and says his not the right weight, height colour hair, colour eyes, colour skin. i tell you something what right has he to tell us we are not normal just because he thinks he has the right to tell us that he has a label for us. christ is he hitler. it seems a lot like it. a vile oppression thats what it is. to not be the right weight and size, and what they want us to be does not give them the right to label us.

WE ARE NORMAL, WE ARE UNITED AS A UNION OF BROTHERS AND NO MAN WOMAN NOR CHILD WILL TELL US OTHERWISE FOR WE ARE THE BROTHER/ SISTERHOOD OF ASPIES AND WE ARE DAMNED PROUD.

if a man has problems with the fact he is as go to www.assupportonline.com they will help. but i say you are who you are so be proud.

brother devil

hey brahs and sisters.

no man, woman or child is normal. we are all different individuals so we are normal in that regard. who wants to be a normal person. damn any man who tells me i am not normal, damn any man who says i have not as much right to live as he does. damn him. i will stand forth with my brothers and sisters and live my life how i must.

the issue is here, people tell us were not normal.

i will tell you something WE ARE NORMAL BECAUSE WE ARE INDIVIDUALS. some psycologist looks at a sheet and says his not the right weight, height colour hair, colour eyes, colour skin. i tell you something what right has he to tell us we are not normal just because he thinks he has the right to tell us that he has a label for us. christ is he hitler. it seems a lot like it. a vile oppression thats what it is. to not be the right weight and size, and what they want us to be does not give them the right to label us.

WE ARE NORMAL, WE ARE UNITED AS A UNION OF BROTHERS AND NO MAN WOMAN NOR CHILD WILL TELL US OTHERWISE FOR WE ARE THE BROTHER/ SISTERHOOD OF ASPIES AND WE ARE DAMNED PROUD.

if a man has problems with the fact he is as go to www.assupportonline.com they will help. but i say you are who you are so be proud.

brother devil