Is empathy a social construct?

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You really think the only reason NT's ever care about other people is due to hierarchy dynamics?

I feel more watching a documentary on TV over watching my friend cry....although I am more "connected" to my friend. I do care, but its different

Psychopaths don't have empathy either. Coincidence?

Marshall, they take care of their DNA (family) plus whoever the power hierarchy says they should. They can have conflicts between protecting their family and the hierarchy but I see no conflicts about outsiders, who get summarily despatched. They're still playing by jungle rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Someone had a hard time in high school

Erm... the Milgram experiment is a well known demonstration of human nature. I'm relating it to empathy in nonautistics. At each step the science either backs me up or is one small leap away. If you have any specific queries I could help.

I can't vouch for how this works with NTs, I have a very low sense of empathy.

Thanks for contributing regardless.

I'm an NT and maybe many NTs do exaggerate. But, if I let it, a strangers tragedy really f***s me up the instant I watch it on the news. Some poor bastard gets drowned in a flood or sees his kids drowned, maybe he knows its coming even, and suffers terribly as he tries to desparately save his baby. I feel their pain intensely, it can spook me for hours. I think about their lives, their parents, their partners, kids, their friends. What it would be like if that had happened to my lover or my father? I feel it down to my curling toes, its the biggest threat I have to my mental health. I feel the depression (proper pyschotic depression) that it can bring and I fight it off because my mental health is strong (it has to be, as everyone I love is closer to that pit).

I always think f**k "There but for the grace of God go I." - a lovely Christian saying to this ungodly NT Pastafarian. I don't even let other people know about it so there is not social gain being sought (its not exaggaerated so as to be seen to be nice). The person drowning, or seeing their baby drown, is not a member of my "in group", not my skin colour or religion, sexuality or social class. The only "in group" is humanity.

I don't do that to fit into any NT social heirarchy, in this context thats bollocks. . External heirarchies do not control me.

I am not simply an animal driven by base instincts alone. Sometimes, I intellectualise those base instincts, overcome the chemistry and act independently, with my NT brain, not my body. This social heirarchy thing is way too simplistic, it may have some real truths it, but blindly sees NTs as a 2D homogeneous bunch, evidently as untrue as imagining all the Aspies on here are some homogeneous bunch.
So much for diversity.

Fraac, the below are some quick examples of why I believe that although our animal instincts are strong (NTs and AS), in fact I'm not just a chimp who only follows her base instincts. I am not just a chimp and whose oxytocin makes me nice to the the "in" group and nasty to the "out" group.

Overcoming Andrenalin – My base instinct is to fight and instead I fascillitate a conciliation, intellectually more interesting
Overcoming Progesterone/Estrogen – My base instinct is to want to have a baby, the planets population is high enough so I rationalise it and dont procreate.
Overcoming High Estrogen - I've got PMT today, my chemicals make me moody and ratty, and frankly a little deranged, but I feel it, rationalize it and overcome it.
Overcoming Oxytocin - Sometimes the "In group" is every sentient human being, NTs are connected to every sentient human being.
Overcoming Seretonin./Dopamine etc. - Brain chemistry says I feel low, I deliberately make endorphins to cheer myself up
Overcoming High Estrogen – My chemistry make my libedos low one day, but fek, Im damned if Im gonna go along with sex being for procreation and, I know if I have some sex, it will feed that libedo and I'll be a happy happy bunny
Overcoming Oxytocin – I shagged a psychopath once, the extraordinary fun and games told me I loved him, but even at the time I could still rationalize it, cant possibly love a pscyhopath, so run!

Last edited by pastafarian on 14 Nov 2011, 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re your friends being beautiful, "slipping up" and then being classed as psychopaths. We may have a different definition of beautiful people. Mine is people who are deeply kind, thoughtful, generous with themselves, and love/take care of /share each other. Psychopaths are not beautiful, they are dull at best, vile at worst. In your view 'Classed as', or were psychopaths?

I'm critical of the conclusions drawn from the Milgram experiment. All it proves is that people don't overcome their disbelief that the administrator of the test would actually allow them to perform torture and murder, even if what they're hearing from the other room conflicts with this. If I was taking this test I would eventually start thinking "this can't be real, am I in the twilight zone?".

There are studies which show that when this test was applied in more authoritarian cultures (i.e. China) people were much more likely to refuse at some point. This seems contradictory until you think about the "unreality" factor. In other words, people who live in authoritarian cultures are more likely to believe extreme torture isn't outside the realm of possibility. Meanwhile, in western society people tend to become drones when put in a situation that is incredibly surreal and unbelievable. I think in general when people are subject to conflicting information, cognitive dissonance, and stress they tend to go with authority as a last resort. This is in line with phenomenon such as Stockholm syndrome. It doesn't disprove the existence of empathy outside of group identity.

I'll check that out about the Chinese because that's plausible. There's still blind obedience stuff going on - like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_sear ... _call_scam - and I think it connects neatly to the weird feeling we get amongst groups of people.

Pastafarian: my psychopath friend gets away with it and remains popular and able to make anyone feel safe. He actually taught me that. I was the only one who knew. Maybe there are really friendly, funny, popular people who aren't just getting away with it, but my impression is that most social circles, certainly most institutions, are run by psychopaths.

I don't think anyone can overcome their biology, but it's perhaps pointless to argue. I think people rationalise their instincts to fool themselves into believing they're in control. My awareness of NT group behaviour supports this, and it's reasonable to suppose I'm no different (though I'm obviously in no position to see it). You would generally need someone whose consciousness is 'higher' to point out where you're following little patterns and deceiving yourself about free will. That's true for everyone.

Thats a variation on Jarvis Cockers (warning bad language) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCNSqRMHD7o



Fair enough, no tape loop arguing Today I have PMT - and if you tap into that you I will growl and snarl and that will argue your case for you. (Im really not horrible but it can make me horrible if I let it) You touch a wee sore point for me. I get furious inside with the idea I am not in control of me (re PMT, agression, sex, social heirarchies). For you, the social heirarchy thing just isn't there, you are immune to it. I have to intellectualise it to be 'me' (a little like how Aspies have to work their brains hard to do social stuff).

I think you are right about oxytocin and animal hierarchies, in/ out group stuff. That all exisits and its fascinating, but its not what I call empathy. Connections but its not the whol story. I also think there is more than the memory thing you touch on (I had that pain, therefore I remember what its like to have that pain, so I feel it too). I'm sure there is something else different between brains that makes some people, and not others truly feel, subconsciously, what its like to be in other people shoes. Those feelings happen for people, not just "in groups".

I'm a little tired of the repeated "herd instinct" argument. If oxytocin really was the answer to all ills undoubtedly it would be added to the water supply or similar.

I always understood oxytocin to be responsible for maternal bonding, and, by analogy, the formation of (secure) attachments.

There may be an oblique connection between a person's ability to form attachments, and the ability to experience empathy. But they are not the same thing.

it floods the brain:
- during breast feeding,
- during orgasm and after sex (all loved up)
- and during childbirth

But I think the study discussed here, and others, suggests it has a role to play in social hierarchies/

http://autismcrisis.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... e-for.html

I can see how there can be a link between oxytocin and "in group/out groups", but I dont see how thats linked to what I understand to be empathy. I feel empathy with humans, whether part of my social network, friends, family, etc or not. And cross species, mostly dogs.

Last edited by pastafarian on 16 Nov 2011, 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Okay, but I'm trying to address empathy as defined as 'stuff that autistics lack that NTs have', because we can use the differences between us to leverage new understanding. The empathy that you share with autistics is awesome, underreported, and difficult to study. I've experimented with oxytocin and felt pre-conscious warmth for 'my people' and hostility to 'outsiders'. Apparently even this simple observation isn't widely recognised, probably because NTs don't have awareness of social hierarchies so the connection between the warmth and the hostility isn't apparent.

Readingbetweenthelines, I think you need to read the lines. We're talking about the feelings that lead to attachment and to bullying. It isn't oblique.