Understanding the model NTs operate on

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The link in my signature is very telling( I think) and is something I've experienced. The numbers of it though, are mixed, and I can't really say how many are "projectionist" at this level, and how many are not.

In my experience I'll say that the balance tips into open mindedness, or having the faculty of 'presence of mind' vs this phenomenon. But it all depends on the pool of local experience.

Lol, yes I will admit to being like this - I seek out what I see as the implied judgment behind the comment. In many cases the judgmental mindset is explicit anyway. Aspies are told to seek out the hidden agenda but when we do we're told stop doing that - you can't win!

I'm clearly NOT stupid or I wouldn't have analysed things to such depth. In the NT world its seen as 'meaningless wittering on
about nothing' though as it doesn't advance my place in the social hierarchy/gain me any advantage hence seen as invalid to the average NT

So we talk at cross purposes and it's all a bit of a waste of time as we don't value each others' communication modes

And?

This is all riddles to me

How can I know the point you are making if you don't make it explicitly?

You do know that aspies generally need to have things explained in full?

I do anyway

If you are implying that I am a bully too I would say I have been forced to develop an aggressive persona as a defense
strategy as a result of being forced to live in a horrendously aggressive culture - it's sink or swim. I doubt I'd still be here
if I hadn't developed a healthy level of anger - it's what's kept me alive

Last edited by nessa238 on 14 Apr 2012, 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Defence sequences

1.unconscious repression
2.conscious denial
3.distortion (including exaggeration and minimization) and lies
4.projection (blaming somebody else)
5.enlisting the help of one or more of his or her codependent friends who will support his or her distorted view.

With relation to me or him?

I don't lie - it's not in my nature

I don't summon allies either - I fight my own battles

I would suggest that you on the other hand are aiding and abetting the NT who was picking on me,
which I would term bullying

It's always the way on forums

distortion (including exaggeration and minimization) and lies

projection (blaming somebody else)


These behaviours seem to envelope the neurologically typical and atypical.

If you have Aspergers you are proof positive of the pointlessness of the whole Asperger diagnosis - we have nothing
in common and think in diametrically opposing ways - so how on earth could any support provision provide for both our
needs??

We might as well have different conditions for all the help and understanding the Asperger diagnosis is going to achieve

I find that I can't relate to people who are NT or Aspie.

And it's hardly my fault if someone else is stupid - there's no projection involved in stating the obvious

You seem to have swallowed a psychotherapy textbook and seem intent on foisting psychobabble onto people

Projection is another version of paranoia - a fob-off term to shut people in mental distress up!

Oh you're projecting, that'll be £80 for my staggering insight please

Do me a favour and come up with something orginal for a change

That is a big problem. You are absolutely right that if people see a mismatch between body language and what a person says, they will call the body language "truth". I know I do. The only way I see around this is to just tell people that they will probably see this mismatch and to ignore the body language and listen only to the words. I would say this only to people you interact with frequently. They will wonder why there is this mismatch. If you don't want to come out as having Aspergers, you could label it as automatic mannerisms that you don't entirely have control over. This will get you labeled as weird but benign. That's better than being labeled as hostile or sad or whatever your body language is accidentally projecting.

I have a quirky (but not autistic) friend who told me back at the beginning of our friendship that he "doesn't ever touch people or want to be touched" and that this was just a quirk and nothing personal. He wanted me not to get offended if he ever flinched if I accidentally touched him. That is his quirk and I respect it. He tells this to people he sees all the time so everybody knows not to run over and hug him if they haven't seen him for a while. A wave and a happy hello is what is preferred. My point is that people accomodate this quirk quite easily but only because he told us. If he had never said anything, I would always wonder if he secretly didn't like me if he flinched when I brushed past him. So tell the people who are part of your daily life to expect this mismatch and they will be able to better accomodate it.

Cal me a cynic, but I doubt any books written by Nt's will be that helpful.
They are not honest enough.

The truthful aspects of their soial dynamic, that could be considered negative would not be included in any self help stuff.

Psychologist would be more helpful.

Revival, yes I agree that most books are not very helpful - though there are a few good ones out there. In general, I have found the info and people on WP far more helpful. The counselor I am seeing is NT and not an expert in Autism, additionally I have far to many problems at the moment so am needing to use sources like books and WP for whatever I can.

That sounds like good advice Janissy, I will try to tell people that my words are more important than my body language before I am in a situation requiring damage control. A bit of an odd 'quirk' to bring someones attention to though it is the people who have learnt to take my words over my body language that I have the easiest time with.
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In relation to processing raw data about people, this is what I have understood from previous posts:

NTs use a compartmentalisation process, with each person having a set of mental boxes that focus on similarities that enable people to be grouped. They sort incoming information, pick out some, forget the rest. Sorting is done according to categories or social conventions. Some categories are thought to correspond with eachother while other categories don’t correspond with eachother. So NT assumes that once they have categorised someone into one or more compartments, they could only occupy corresponding compartments – noncorressponding compartments are out of the question. Once classified subconscious routines relating to the classification category take over and the rest of the conversation is likely to be subconsciously processed (unless it gets complicated).

The person with AS is likely to collect masses of raw data, people and data are in one category and all this is simultaneously in the mind. Lack of heuristics etc. mean that it can take a long time to get at ease with people and directly trusting someone has a higher risk. AS do not process the conversation subconsciously so lacks synchronisation with an NT who is subconsciously processing the conversation. Also because it is harder to organise facts into categories and generalise, AS struggle with social constructs that can’t be inferred from accumulated facts.

Questions:
1) Is the above model correct?
2) Do the boxes people are put in by others affect how they think of themselves?
3) If people are filtering raw data to use some info and discard other info, and people do not have a standard system for allocating people to categories, why do they tend to think their way of doing things is the right way?
4) NTs use of heuristics can go wrong when dealing with people who are different from them – so do they assume people are the same as them? How does this make them feel about people who they can tell are different from them - e.g. are they wary because they dont know how to classify them?
5) One of the posters on an old thread commented that some NTs do not use the usual heuristics, they fake it too – and it is these people that are good to find as then neither party has to fake it, however, how do you identify when someone else is faking communication/social skills?
6) Bonus question, is modelling people to understand them something that all people do on some level or is what I am doing unusual? An NT I was talking to said aspects of communication cant be modelled. I don’t see how it is possible to understand things without having a model for them.

Thanks

For me the above model is partly corrrect and partly incorrect. I sort people into compartments and the compartmentalization guides my conversations. That part is correct for me. What is incorrect for me is that the compartments are rigid and discrete. I find them to be very fluid. People can occupy multiple non-corresponding compartments and flow from one compartment to another.

Here are some examples of compartments: friend, acquintance, very close friend, distant relative, very close relative, co-worker, service worker I am interacting with, boss, somebody I have hired to work on my house. (not a complete list) Each compartment has it's own conversation conventions, as you correctly assume. However, sometimes people can flow from one compartment to another or occupy multiple compartments- they are not boxed into one compartment for as long as I know them. There is ebb and flow and relationships change. The person who was just a co-worker can also become a friend. If they get a promotion at work and become my boss, the relationship changes yet again to something that is different from either of those categories alone. (This example recently happened at work. )

Some other examples of categories: benign stranger, scary stranger, person I trust, salesman trying to sell me something, person I trust, person I don't trust and must interact with, person I don't trust and can avoid, neighbor, good neighbor, bad neighbor, crazy guy I should avoid, crazy guy who seems harmless, stoner, child, somebody who needs my help (not a complete list)

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2) Do the boxes people are put in by others affect how they think of themselves?

The compartments other people have put me in do not affect how I feel about myself. This is because I occupy multiple compartments and the compartments are ever-changing yet my self image remains the same.

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3) If people are filtering raw data to use some info and discard other info, and people do not have a standard system for allocating people to categories, why do they tend to think their way of doing things is the right way?

Once data has been discarded, it is gone. The data that remains feels right, even if it is incorrect because it is incomplete. This is because people often don't realize it is incomplete.

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4) NTs use of heuristics can go wrong when dealing with people who are different from them – so do they assume people are the same as them? How does this make them feel about people who they can tell are different from them - e.g. are they wary because they dont know how to classify them?

People are very wary of those they can't classify. Generally, getting to know somebody allows for classification. Unfortunately for autistic people, the statisticaly tiny size of the autistic population means it doesn't exist as a classification for many people and autistic people either remain unclassifiable (hence scary) or are incorrectly classified into a statistically larger group (for example, illegal drug users- many people on WP reprt being mistaken for being stoned).

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5) One of the posters on an old thread commented that some NTs do not use the usual heuristics, they fake it too – and it is these people that are good to find as then neither party has to fake it, however, how do you identify when someone else is faking communication/social skills?

I don't know. Sorry.

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I think the modeling is usually done so quickly that it happens subconsciously. Bringing up to the conscious level is laborious and inefficient. People probably model a lot more than they are aware of due to the subconscious nature of the modeling.

A teacher friend who woks with ADS children suggest this book to me: MISS MANNERS' GUIDE TO EXCRUCIATINGLY CORRECT BEHAVIOR

Why do people want to know miscellaneous information about other people such as how their day was, whats going on in their lives etc.? And actually want to know, not just ask without wanting to know.

How, if at all, does sharing information about oneself with others relate to the concept of social support?

It puts people a little bit into each other's lives. Sharing these bits of information makes peoples' lives feel like they are overlapping and connected. To share no information at all feels very isolating, which is an unpleasant feeling for NTs.

My core way of thinking is in a web of concepts, which are visually represented.

The field guide to earthlings book that was recommended earlier, talks about poeple thinking in a web of symbols.

So are other people aware of thinking in a web of symbols, concepts etc. or have I misunderstood this?