Do NT's consider you as a.....

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Non-person.

A person deemed as unworthy of respect and attention?

I am reading about Body-language, and it states that individuals who possess little to no understanding of personal body-language may be intepreted as being unworthy of "human" status.

They illustrate this case by noting the behaviors of mental patients who are unaware of or lack concern for thier maintainance of body language. Verbal conduct or visible. The book also refers to children (who lack basic social skills, because of inexperience) as non-persons.

I have read that adults with AS have an extremely difficult time decoding body-language, whether it is thier own or others. Does this make AS adults comparative to children? who often miss the social ques and are incapable of conducting themselves appropriately in social situations?

Do you consider people with a disability (mental or physical) as being socially inferior to the rest of the world?

I have a difficult time with body-language. My own, and interpreting others' physical behaviors as well.

Often, when i am interacting with an NT, i notice that there are apparent physical/verbal contradictions.

ME: (looks at NT person) How are you?

NT: Good. (shrugs shoulders)

This is just a *basic* example.

The NT's body contradicts thier words.

I suppose it could just be common courtesey by expressing a non-agressive sentiment.

Anyway, do you believe that people consider you to be a non-person, and why?

Words often contradict body language. Especially with us women! Often the body language is more important. With that shoulder-shrugging example...the person will lie about the fact that they're really not feeling that great either to make conversation, be polite or to cover it up because they don't want to talk about it. (When someone asks you how you are, it's socially correct to say you're not too bad after all...people don't really want to hear about how you stayed up all night with the runs because you ate some funny seafood with a couple of randoms you met down the street )

Something I've come to realise about NTs is that most of what they do is instinctive; subconscious. Even some of the cruelty! Funnily enough I'm NT myself and I've only just come to realise this (thanks to the AS community!). If someone snubs someone they read as different etc, and are then asked why they did it...they probably couldn't come up with anything resembling a coherent answer They speak a silent language without even knowing it. Learning about all of this has made me start noticing my own body language a lot more, and that of others...

I think the 'non-person' analogy is particularly brutal actually. More accurately I think NTs will find an inability to correctly read body language more weird and annoying than anything as it's confusing...why is that person's behaviour and interpretation so far off?

The first Aspie I met and knew about really REALLY threw me with body language (I thought she was being rude!) but we quickly came to an understanding luckily enough. Lol. If you can fumble your way around well enough you can overcome people's initial 'WTFLOL' reaction to messed up body language input and output...

As for children being non-persons...again, I reckon that's pretty harsh. People do tend to brush aside what children have to say in a conversation or their misbehaviour etc because it's deemed inappropriate for society's daily runnings. But they seem more like half-persons if we're gonna define it like that. Not quite complete. Not quite fitting in...

Not really, I have a bit of body language, it is clumsy but I am still considered a person in the school. Oh, and all the teachers adore me because I am well behaved~ x3

I know that I am often "invisible" to many people(as are children).Most of the time, I like that.I love to ease-drop on people as they are a am an social anthropologist,some days.I maybe sending out the body language that I dont want to be approached even at times when I do,(very rare).The only times this is inconvenient is when I need service in a store or when I use to go to bars and wanted some one to talk to me.Others said it was because I look "pissed off" and people are afraid to approach.


I think there is still a basic "clan" mentality in humans(including AS),who view outsiders as "less" then themselves.This would include children to adults,adults to teens,teens to adults and children..."foreigners" to "Natives",disabled to abled,etc.I thikn the military takes advantage of this human tendency to foster humans killing humans and our society does it to "justify" eating animals.(No,I'm not vegetarian nor condemning omnivores).

There are certain questions that I just don't get at all...
1. How are you?
2. Let's get together to have coffee sometime. (with a rising intonation)
3. Is it Ok if I get your cell number?

I try my best to socialize about once a week with a mothers' group. But these questions always floor me because I never know what they really mean.
"How are you?" questions never seem to be genuine- Why do they ask if they really don't care or don't want to know. I figure it's like steps to a dance that I don't get. They all know the steps and what to do- while I just fumble around with my two left feet.

The "coffee" question gets to me too... Why say you want to get together for coffee if you have no intention to really do it. Why not set a date and a time and meet up then.
And as for the cell number I really don't get it. The only person who calls me on my cell is my hubby. It's like they want to collect phone numbers and never call.
Life would be so much easier if they say what they mean and mean what they say.

So- as to the question of if NTs treat me as a non-person- I really don't know and don't care. I have no time for the gossip and I think it frustrates them that I just am not interested. Most of the time I just try to be civil to them and recognize that I just don't understand people.

I wanted to share a story that relates to what you said about people who ask that coffee question. My co-worker and I were discussing food, once. She, who happened to be Vietnamese, was surprised that I had never eaten that kind of food. She said something about having me over for dinner one night, and she would cook Vietnamese cuisine for me. Well, I bugged that poor woman every time I saw her. I thought that since she had mentioned this, I saw no harm in fixing a date. Finally, she did, and the food was delicious. Much, much later, it occurred to me that maybe I had been seen as rude and pushy. But she was so polite, I'll never know for sure.

im sure she understands.

as for those questions 2 posts up
"how are you?" = a greeting like "hello". most languages dont have a word for "hello" so for greetings they say things like "good day"

"how are you?" = hi
"not to bad. yourself?" = hey
(w/e they say) = well i came up to talk to u about....

Last edited by matt271 on 19 Feb 2007, 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If she thought that you were pushy I'm sure she would have found a way to back out of the dinner but breaking a promise in Vietnamese custom/tradition is not good.
They would have expected you to be a little late though... so as to not appear 'overly enthusiastic'.

Yeah, the "Si senor, you come-a to ma shop and a cook-a you real nice" hasn't happened to me that much, but it will again.
Like a rash.

"Words often contradict body language"; yes, but most often its those damn Humansk who make the contradictions. Which is why, if I must converse, I try to use very straight-forward language. Little chance of misunderstanding. Plus: its make it sound like I have contempt for the individual to whom I am speaking at (Which I usually do.)

Consider "Non person". Non Person may mean (To some) a member of a different race, a pathological monster, or a member not of the human race.
The latter, I'm afraid, sounds almost like a compliment.

Maybe it is?

Here we have some bog-standard NT-style read-between-the-invisible-lines communication

1) How are you? This means 'Hi, let's converse.'

That's about it.

Sometimes can mean 'I haven't seen you in ages!'

There are a very small range of correct responses to this. Your life story is not one of them! 'How are you?' almost NEVER means that, unless amongst VERY close aquaintences (partner, family, best friends). It's a conversation starter. Nowadays it's degenerated to a more meaningful 'Sup?' or 'Chupto?' in some groups.

The usual responses are quick - good, great, not bad, not too bad, fantastic...etc. Basically confirm you are in the mood for speaking by giving a short, positive response. A negative or long response can come across as self-centred or offputting...the speaker isn't interested in your hangover after last night's drunken brawl and subsequent puking session They're just saying hi.

However if it's your lover, or perhaps your parents, if you did have a rotten week or so and haven't seen them since then, chances are they are going to WANT to know why you look so sad.

2. Let's get together to have coffee sometime.

This can have multiple meanings...apply it to the person in question.

a) Really enjoy your company, I need to see you again sometime! This is the more positive meaning it can take on. It means that they'd like to spend more time with you at some stage...not necessarily coffee either, that's a commonly accepted example. Essentially - remember I want to see you again. Basically what that means. No booked time until a later date normally.

b) I'm getting sick of your company, can I take a raincheck and have a breather kthxlol? This is an omfgSHUTUP response. They don't want to offend you, but they're really feeling suffocated...they don't mind you but they're overloaded. Hence the no booking time. Usually this question signifies LET ME GET THE FECK OUT OF HERE! if the person is likely to be someone that can't tolerate any more of you at that moment in time. It's a conversation ender.

Either way is difficult to tell sometimes...you really have to know the person's tendencies and have to have read the body language that goes along with it. A very simple and generic one is look at their arms, and their feet. All their subconscious body language should be a good clue.

Arms:
a) crossed...either over stomach or chest. Over stomach is a defensive mechanism...person is not comfortable, is nervous, etc. Over chest - this is an impatience and boredom response. It's a very aggressive stance as opposed to the over stomach defense. Either way, the arms over the torso is a blatant 'closing off' physical statement. (Keep in mind though, this can be learned behaviour, and if the person ALWAYS has their arms folded, chances are it's habit rather than non-verbal speech )

b) on hips...this is a VERY aggressive stance. Can indicate anger, impatience, boredom, you name it. Sighing and putting hands on hips is a very strong annoyance cue for many people. Like above it can also be a habit...know the person's personality, read the tone in their voice. It may be the comfortable place for their arms, or it may be that they're rather pissed off.

c) in pockets or by side...this is a casual, open stance. They are leaving their torso open to you...chances are they are happy or enjoying your company. Especially if they are facing you directly! Again this can be a comfort or habit thing, but chances are it indicates you're onto a good thing and they're enjoying your presence.

d) behind back (often seen as one hand holding the other elbow)...this is also an open stance, but somewhat submissive. Can indicate shyness...often seen when someone has a crush on someone else

e) fiddling... for NTs, fiddling isn't stimming, it's a sign of boredom. Especially if they're looking at what they're doing. This is not a GOOD thing...the idea is to have them completely absorbed, but if they're constantly playing with something, you've lost them. They're bored. If they're scratching their watch or glancing at it constantly, not only are they bored they want outta there! Watch for this. (Alternatively if you have a hunch that their fiddling is stimming, you can disregard all that )

Feet:
Take note of where they're pointing. A person's feet will subconsciously point at the most interesting thing in the room. This is where it feels most 'comfortable' if you notice yourself doing the same thing. Say you're in a bar...if the person you're talking to has a foot pointing at you, and the other at the barman, they're interested in what you're saying (and you), and probably wouldn't mind washing it down with a drink. If they're standing sorta side-on with one foot toward the bar and the other at the door, arms over chest and glancing off in the other direction, they are probably desperate to get away from you You know you have someone interested if they have a foot pointing right at you

Let's not forget eyes...
If you're able to glance into their eyes regularly, this is an advantage. If they're looking at you or in your general direction (NTs don't always lock eyes completely, it's creepy even for us) then they're interested. If they're spending most of their time glancing elsewhere (particularly at a clock) they're bored.



...all this body language up to this point should let you know whether the person asking for a coffee date means 'Omg I have to see you again!' or 'Omg I've had enough already!'.

3. Is it Ok if I get your cell number?

This one is fun. This means they want a contact to you...they're interested in you, in whatever way that may be, and want to keep tabs on you or have the number for future reference. Usually when someone of the opposite gender asks this, they are interested in you in...well, that way To any degree. From an aquaintence, this could mean that they want to be a closer friend, they really like you.

It's not that they want to call you on a regular basis, they want to be able to contact you, they're somewhat afraid of losing you.

You can easily take the cellphone thing as a compliment

WOW, Thanks Shale!! !
I'm going to have to print this off!

LOL. I'd told my b/f similar things actually, got a similar response from him Only he started noticing that when I was in the car with him, when I fold my legs facing away from him, that he thought I was bored with him And facing towards him that the opposite was true.

(I think I'll have to start looking into body language a bit more and start translating more if it's helpful to anyone...)

Shale, you are awesome!

You just cleared up in one post about 8 different questions I had.

Thank you ;^).

~Aspiegirl89~

I often find that people just don't listen to what I say. They will often make the same statement later in the conversation. They had no idea that I just said it. I think it has something to do with not being assertive

I've often had the same problem surprisingly I found out why, too...

Think of a group conversation as a dance floor. There's music playing, and the group is dancing. People take turbs dancing in the middle of the group from time to time...this is the speaker at the time. Everyone else is dancing along, watching them be the centre of attention. Usually when you're in the centre, you bust a move and shimmy back on to the rest of the group. If they cheer you on, you continue.

Sometimes someone will jump in and dance in...well, a completely unrelated style. Or, just badly. Usually someone else will just dive in and do their own thing while this poor soul is trying to express themselves.

It's not a matter of asserting yourself more, it's learning how to dance to the music appropriately Learn when it's your turn to jump in, how you're expected to dance (as in, you can dance in your own interpretation of the current style...if they're busting out the 80's funky shiz, you're gonna look like a tard if you start breakdancing. Likewise, if everyone's breakdancing and you jump in and do the twist...you're toast), and when it's someone else's turn to dance.

Again, this is something I noticed with my man. We go to REXnet meets every second wednesday...this is one of the local Subaru clubs. We meet up with all our cars, then stand around in a group and talk. The group often ignores him, though sometimes they can get a little hostile (one guy commented 'you really like digging and digging deeper and deeper don't ya?' at one meet). His problem - he would often jump in quite loudly, while someone else was talking. Other times he'd jump in with a useful fact at the time, but keep on going on about it. He wouldn't read the body language...people giving one-word or one-syllable answers is a dead giveaway, as is them looking at someone else or starting to talk about something else!

It comes back to that dancing thing. We were all breakdancing, then he'd jump in with a bit of breakdancing himself...sometimes when someone else was still dancing. Other times he'd jump in with a completely different style of dance. Or as the case is most often...he'd jump in and NOT GET OUT! XD

I've learned from watching this, two important rules for group discussion...

1) DO NOT bring EVERYTHING back to you It's dangerous. Don't jump in after every comment someone makes with something related to yourself. Even if something seems completely relevant at the time, ask yourself...will anyone else here give a stuff? Often...no, they won't. This is the battle that goes on inside everyone's head...it seems like people don't bring things back to themselves a heck of a lot or have a lot to say (aside from the typical 'group leader' blabbermouths)...they're just holding back. If the conversation is about someone or something else, don't make it about yourself until it's time to focus group attention on you.

2) Take bite-sized pieces. When talking in groups, you'll notice people will make one-sentence responses in general conversation unless someone is telling a story. (And in which case, try your HARDEST to refrain from jumping in while someone is telling a story. This is something else my buy does...he jumps in while I'm trying to say something, changes the conversation topic, and generally makes me wanna hit him for doing so ) Try to make your point in a very concise manner, unless you're telling an anecdote. One to two sentences, then it's time for someone else to roll the dice.



...I used to be bad for making irrelevant or self-centred statements. It doesn't help anyone! When in a group, you have to earn respect normally...earn the right to say more, more often. To do this you need to show that what you're saying is worth everyone else stopping to listen to you. Is it relevant to them? You need to look from their point of view. Once you start making useful, informative, funny, poignant or otherwise interesting additions to the current conversation, people will be increasingly interested in hearing what you have to say. They'll begin to stop to listen to you if you do this well. That's how the blabbermouths in the group can get away with it without everyone leaving them...the majority of what they say is 100% relevant to the majority of people in the group.