Aspies and society

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Back when I was young child before I had full understanding of the world and my disorder, I was always perplexed by how other people could just cling to customs and rules without questioning them, even if said custom and rule was essentially holding them back from their potential/something more fun to do.

Here's a stupid and minor example, remember how back in elementary school when you would have a sub? Usually said sub would introduce him/herself by going "I'm _______, hello everyone!" and then the class would usually respond back with "Hello" in a less then enthusiastic manner. Of course the sub then would say "Alright, lets try that again. Hello everyone!" and then the entire class (minus me) would suddenly give the sub a fake enthusiastic "HELLO!". During these moments I would start thinking "If nobody cares to do this greeting stuff with the sub, then why don't they just remind silent the next time the sub asks them to do it again? Its not like they're being forced to do this. What is the sub going to do if they don't reply back?". You can apply this simple example to many things.

NTs, especially when they're young, will complain about a certain aspect of society, but they will put up with it anyway even though they have the power to stop that aspect (then of course we aspies are seen as "bad" and "weird" when we openly shown our disdain for this aspect). For example, most young NTs hate going to school and dream for a day off, but they could essentially achieve a day off if every single student just refused to go school one day. What are the staff and their parents going to do? Sure they can send cops after them, but its not like they're going to be taken to jail or something. I used to think like this all the time, but my NT peers were so willing to play by the rules of society, I had too or else I would be the "oddball", then again, back in my elementary years I never cared about nor paid attention to my abnormal behaviors and I constantly had meltdowns when a NT teacher would force a rule on me that I saw no point too (for example, I got sent to the office in kindergarten because I wanted to get juice at lunch, but juice was only available for the lactose intolerant kids. I didn't see the point in that because they had enough juice to serve everyone and the LT kids so I went into an aspie meltdown which made my kindergarten teacher want to strangle my little neck).

Of course, now I understand why NTs play by the rules of the society, whereas I usually question them, but this sheep mentality has always bugged me about the people around me. Sure we aspies are literal and love a set structure, but NTs see social rules as something set in stone. It baffles me because it these social rules are REALLY inefficient at times. The government can do whatever they want because NTs just roll with it. They have the mindset they can't change how their society is already set up unless they're in power. But seriously, if the people REALLY wanted something from the American government, then they could easily get it, but they let inefficient values and their willingness to follow society prevent them from gaining said thing.

Thanks for sharing.

I get the feeling I said something wrong or my post is meaningless to you. I guess my thoughts were inappropriate or something.

I think it is simply the nature of things. What I would like to believe is in some cases our unique perspective can enable some of us to achieve what others can't and to see opportunities others can't.

What really kills me is when NT's ask AS's to conform. You know the drill, "can't you just act normal?"

I was asked this Saturday. In short my response was. Look I am an extremely honest person. Extremely. You want me to not sound so down. I am down. What I think you are asking me is to pretend and lie to you. I am not going to do that. I am down and it will pass. That's when the "can't you just act normal" came up. I explained the humor in a person who is regarded as "normal" and well adapted is telling a "non-normal" person who isn't well adapted to adapt and act normal.

If you are so normal and adaptable shouldn't you show it by acting honest with me and adapting your viewpoint to appreciate it?

Another aspies quote I think is also good, " how little you know how little I know about how little you know."

I figured out way too early (age 6) that the worst thing that would happen to me if I did whatever I wanted to do was that my mother would say my name in a really whiny voice and sigh at me, and maybe she'd yell if it was dangerous, but nobody was going to shoot me or put me in jail, so WTF.

Agreed, I think the aspie perspective is very useful especially when it comes to analyzing stuff, but it doesn't help since we live in a NT society so we're often not taken seriously.

I remember how my inability to abide by rules in the past has often caused me to lose friends. I would come to school, hit it off with a NT kid and we would become friends, but then after a day or so, something would happen to cause me to get in a confrontation with a teacher. The teacher would impose a rule on both me and my NT friend (and we both didn't like it), but my NT friend would comply with it, whereas I would disagree with it and then break down into a meltdown. After the meltdown, my friendship with the NT would be over. I would approach the NT after my incident and try to make friendly conversation with him, but the NT would either straight up ignore me (a common practice down in elementary school) or make up some lie about how he had something to do... then later on I would usually hear him insulting me around his NT friends.

angryguy, I too have noticed and thought of what you mention, like people often "overconform" when there's no real need or pressure to do so, and they limit their fun that way.

In the example you give of the sub, maybe it was just to give the sub what the sub wanted, just to make him feel good... But when a presenter asks a very large audience for a hearty applause, I've noticed that everyone in the audience applauds heartily, even though no one would even notice if they didn't. Similarly, I've seen people censor themselves and refrain from doing something they wanted to do when no one was looking or no one would've cared if they found out, and I didn't understand why.

I don't know why they do it, the possibilities are many. One is maybe it gives them a certain pleasure, a feeling of togetherness that we neurodifferents don't experience... One other possibility I've thought of is that maybe people are afraid of even starting to go down the path of doing as they please, even tasting it a bit, lest they start liking it and it ruins them or it leaves them alone in the long run. Fear of freedom, perhaps?

It's funny how sometimes you guys seem to see all of us NT's as the same. Not all of us are sheep who mindlessly follow social norms. If we did there would be no rebels, no revolutions, no changes at all. Some kids probably didn't say anything in that class. We're not all a bunch of mindless social drones. I'm NT, but social norms aren't the most important thing to me, if I think something is stupid or I disagree, I will fight it, I won't just follow along.

WTF? I've never met an NT that follows the rules. If anything, they do the opposite. In fact, one of the defining characteristics of autism is, literally, a strict adherence to the rules.

Moondust, I've been doing alot of research on asperger's lately and it has given me an understanding of why NTs are willing to bend to social customs and rules even though they can restrict them in inconvenient ways whereas aspies are not. It is all about the fact that NTs do not suffer from mindblindness and can understand the mindset and feelings of another person. NTs also feel safer with a group of people so they go out their way to be "socially acceptable".

On the other hand, we aspies don't feel safe at all in a group of people (I think many of us hate going to a place that is packed with people) and we suffer from mindblindness. The only thoughts, feelings, and emotions we can consider are our own. That is why we don't restrict ourselves to social customs or rules and seek a freedom that NTs do not.

As for my sub example, the reason why the NTs give the sub what they want is because they consider the feelings of the sub. Saying hello enthusiastically, even if the enthusiastic is fake, makes the sub feel good so they give into his/her demand to be socially acceptable. On the other hand, an aspie logically doesn't see the point of giving a fake enthusiastic hello because it is ultimately fake and has no meaning behind it. Why bother to make the sub happy with a fake "hello" when it is nothing more but a fake "hello". This is why NTs can have the horrible habit of being extremely fake with other people because they go out of their way to make sure they have a good standing with other people. NTs will not say what they mean if it will disadvantage them in a social situation, but an aspie will.

Trust me, I know that NTs come in many different forms and I have seen plenty first hand completely reject social norms. I'm sorry for the generalizing I have been using in this thread. The term NT really doesn't work since it essisentally covers a very DIVERSE group of people. For that, I apologize.

I guess what I'm getting at is that all NTs, despite their views and actions, have the built-in potential to understand the social plane whereas most aspies do not (generalizing again, sorry). Yes, there are aspies who can overcome their difficulties and ultimately become successful in the social world, but that is not the case for many. We usually have to put on a mask when dealing with others and become tired out after trying to fake socially acceptable behavior.



More like a strict adherence to a set structure. If said structure involves being straight-edge, then the aspie will adhere greatly to the rules of society. On the other hand if said structure involves an illegal activity, then the aspie will be breaking the law to do that illegal activity. Sorry, if I'm not making sense, this really isn't coming out how I want it too.

angryguy, in the case of the sub, I think the aspie assumes that the sub is like himself, preferring an honest reaction to a nicer but fake one.

I don't think all NTs prefer a nice but fake reaction to an honest one, many NTs are as tired as we are of social phoniness. But one thing is for sure: all NTs assume that "OTHER people prefer a fake reaction even if they know it's fake". I think ToM is not actually knowing what others feel, but adhering to a common, accepted (albeit often wrong) theory, i.e. an assumption / generalization of what others feel. Therefore, even if someone doesn't like getting a phony reaction, he prefers it because he thinks: "He's not just being fake, he's giving me what he assumes/theorizes/generalizes I want, and that's a nice thing to do". This, I think, is the importance of conventions and norms.

People know you can't guess their feelings, so they're happy if you at least react according to what you assume they feel. Eg: if I give you chocolates for your birthday and you hate chocolate, you're not angry, because at least I gave you something that everyone assumes everyone likes. I once got a garden adornment for my birthday, when I was very poor and barely had half a room to live in. I got angry because it was such an inappropriate present for me in my circumstances. Flowers would've been as inappropriate because I don't like to get flowers, but at least it would've meant the person assumed I liked flowers like we assume about everyone else.

Okay, I see what you're getting at. Honestly I get a little frustrated with the way people follow a lot of social constructs as well. Maybe that's why the idea of me being considered the same was offensive to me. People really just do it because for most people it is easier not to make a fuss and just do what is expected. It doesn't take much effort for most people to engage in these types of social rituals. People have to do a lot more fighting for themselves if they want to be different, and many people just don't want to be bothered with the social repercussions of going against the group. It's annoying, and boring, and luckily we don't all do that all the time! But I think the true purpose of bending to social expectations is to allow humans to function as more of unit. We're stronger together than we are as separate individuals, and so we adapt to allow us to be part of a group. It doesn't always seem very rational, but I really think there is some purpose behind our bizarre social behaviours.

This is very true, and yet for some strange reason I seem to always end up with the most perfectly conventional of humans as friends, and then they behave to me like angryguy said - ignoring and badmouthing me, for fear of remaining alone with me and shunned by the rest of society. I seem to have a magnet to attract only this kind of people.

Self-invented or self-imposed rules. If we could follow "the rules," then we wouldn't be different. Let me tell you about my 18 months in the navy ...

Yes this needs to be pointed out sometimes, I mean I doubt everyone with autism likes to be negatively generalized...so neurotypicals probably don't like it either. I mean there is nothing about being neurotypical that says you have to be a sheep or are one by default. All it means if you have normal brain function.

Maybe some people get normal brain function mixed up with 'normal' in general which I don't think is the case. The norm would be more what society creates and what the majority conform to or strive to conform to, having normal brain function does not mean you have to be in that category.