NVLD - Where does the 15 point limit come from? (Rewritten)

Post Reply New Topic

Question is rewritten:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf216539-0-0.htmlhttp://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf216539-0-0.html

(Answers before this were written to a confusing version of the question)

Why is it viewed as "PIQ ought to be 155" instead of "VIQ ought to be 140"?

I guess the low PIQ is the anomaly - AFAIK VIQ is more important, and therefore closer to FIQ.

Relative high VIQ can lead to a dominant left brain - which can be a part of the problem though (AFAIK)

Improved Question
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf216539-0-0.html

I'm pretty sure the criteria for NLD in ICD-10 includes other things besides the gap between VIQ and PIQ. I can't find it online but I remember reading about it in a book on NLD and AS and it said you had to have specific deficits like with math and spatial relations, understanding nonverbal cues ect and relative strengths like auditory memory, vocabulary, rote memory. I read that the "relative strengths" are actually mentioned in the criteria or proposed criteria. Is it listed in ICD-10 as a condition or only as a proposed condition? It is confusing.

I would put it differently.

PIQ and VIQ are both determined by a mix of several different underlying cognitive skills, plus learning experiences. And the skills tapped aren't necessarily the same in everyone, too, because of different problem-solving strategies. (Eg, talking your way through visuospatial problems, or visualizing to solve verbal problems.)

There appears to be a factor known as 'g', which corresponds to general intelligence. This influences scores on all the subtests, though it has a weaker impact on memory span and processing speed (these area often diverge from overall IQ).

Then there are a variety of different specific skills influencing only some of the subtests, such as the visuospatial sketchpad (ability to visualize something and manipulate it in your mind's eye).

Since both 'g' and subtest-specific factors affect your scores on each subtest, a severe impairment in a subtest-specific factor combined with a very high 'g' could even out to a pretty good score on that subtest.

Meanwhile, some other tests tap some of those specific skills, with a lot less influence from 'g'. A lot of these are used in clinical neuropsychology, to assess people with brain injuries. And these tests can show up severe deficits which only have a slight impact on overall IQ. For example, a person with within-category visual agnosia will often have a NVLD profile on IQ tests - normal-range PIQ, but it's dropped about 15 or more points from before their injury. Meanwhile, they'll have severe prosopagnosia (face recognition problems), as well as difficulty with things like finding their car in the parking lot, finding which pair of shoes belongs to them, finding their own backpack among other people's backpacks, and so forth. Could add up to a significant impact on their everyday life.

Yes, other factors are involved, but the IQ gap is the factor that is usually looked at first or is used for the actual diagnosis. I don't know if NVLD is in the ICD-10, because it's not used here in the US. It is not in the DSM-IV. You have to be diagnosed with "learning disorder- not otherwise specified" if you have NVLD. But my neuropsychologist tester told me that I would be diagnosed with NVLD if it were an official diagnosis. As of now, it's like Sensory Processing Disorder- a real disorder that is defined and has symptoms, but isn't officially recognized. Most behavioral symptoms of NVLD are very similar to Asperger's, so the IQ scores are often looked at most as far as whether someone has the actual learning disorder.

Basically, the whole NVLD issue is a muddled one, currently. There needs to be better decisions about what NVLD is, what criteria should be used for it, whether it is separate from AS, and (if it is separate from AS) if it's possible to have both NVLD and AS. I currently have been diagnosed with both NVLD and AS, but is this even possible? Is my AS profile just a severe form of NVLD, AND I also have the visual-spatial/mathematical learning disorder component? Or do I really have two separate conditions? We can all thank the DSM-5 for not even bothering to clarify this conundrum...

My personal opinion is that my specific Asperger's profile resembles a severe form of NVLD more so than a form of autism. I have the visual-spatial learning disorder symptoms not seen in AS (e.g., directional confusion, trouble with math/geometry, etc.), but I also have AS symptoms that aren't always seen in straight NVLD (e.g., sensory issues and special interests). Plus, all descriptions of NVLD talk about individuals having wonderful auditory memory and terrible visual memory. I have an excellent visual memory, but the only auditory memory I'm skilled at is dialogue from movies/TV shows. I'm terrible at things like digit span. I learn best by seeing something explained in words AND pictures.

Do most gifted NT people have little difference between VIQ and PIQ?

Is there a disorder for the opposite of NVLD IQ profile, PIQ > VIQ?

Yeah it's confusing how AS and NVLD overlap. I do see the similarity between autism and AS....I just don't know how NVLD fits in or if it's just a similar condition. I have both diagnoses and my NVLD is quite severe (VIQ 45 points higher than PIQ and major problems with spatial relations and really good auditory memory, crappy visual) but I also have a very strong need for sameness and routine, sensory issues and stimming (which as a child was constant-I would twirl my fingers in front of my face-with a string sometimes- constantly- as well as walking in circles talking to myself, hand flapping ect). I also had very severe noticeable social problems as a child -and gave the impression of being "in my own little world" and "not aware of the other kids". My mom was worried when I was a toddler , my teachers were worried as early as preschool and talked to my mom about my strange behaviours and being in my own world ect. So for me I must either have two conditions or NVLD must sometimes greatly resemble autism or "cause" a kind of autism itself -since I meet the ASD criteria- i..e.a different etiology leading to the same syndrome/disorder.

Most gifted NT's don't have a very large discrepancy between VIQ and PIQ......most NT's in general do not. Most gifted people have a VIQ and PIQ above average.

There is no specific learning disability defined as having the opposite pattern of IQ results but the majority of learning disabilities are language based -and people with these kinds of LD's tend to have PIQ higher than VIQ though it's not part of the criteria for them-the criteria involves things like reading level below average for their intelligence and age level ect. The reason why VIQ being a lot higher than PIQ is used as part of the criteria for diagnosing NVLD according to my old psych is that this is an unusual [pattern. That is relatively unusual - unusual compared to the general population and others with learning disabilities. I know a lot of people with ASD's have either VIQ higher or PIQ higher and have crazily scattered sub-scores in their IQ scores- but for most people in the general population their scores from the different parts of their IQ tests are similar to their other scores-otherwise IQ tests would be considered unreliable and they are not.

I disagree

I think it is a question about higher level imbalances between the main areas of intelligence. See my post:
Interpretation of high VIQ - PIQ difference - NVLD

I do not have any references on this, but there are many who dispute the common assumption that NVLD is caused by defects in the right brain.

This is why I ask if PIQ is connected to the actual problems, or if it is just a better predictor (Because it is a representation of higher level imbalances).

If it is more a predictor, the point difference doesn't represent a sum of problems, and people with particular issues could perhaps have more serious NV problems without meeting the VIQ-PIQ requirement.

New and improved question! http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf216539-0-0.html

That ain't squat.

My VRI is 52 points higher than my PRI.

And I would really like if The-Powers-That-Be would study AS verses NVLD in more depth.



Precisely.

There is some discussion on this in my other thread:
Interpretation of high VIQ - PIQ difference - NVLD

I think the opposite of NVLD would be more a right hemisphere dominated brain.

AFAIK I know VIQ is more important in FIQ than is VIQ, so a low VIQ would pull down FIQ much more than a low PIQ.

Last edited by mrsmith on 29 Nov 2012, 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My VIQ is about about 25 to 32 points higher than my PIQ score. From what I have read about NLVD the requirement is that the VIQ is 10 or more points above the PIQ. I want to take it again and improve my PIQ, but even if I improve it 10 to 15 points I would still qualify for the definition of NLVD. Still I would love to improve my PIQ score.

Again, what if there is a gap between VIQ and PIQ, but both are well above average?

If prevalence for NVLD is around 2.5 %, AS is effectively a subgroup of NVLD while Most NVLD are not ASD.

You can also see it as female AS - possibly severe female non AS NVLD are just as impaired as AS.

(This is based on 80% NVLD in AS, much less in the rest of ASD. Prevalence of ASD 1%, and prevalence of AS being much higher in male, while it is about equal for NVLD).



New and improved question! http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf216539-0-0.html

Last edited by mrsmith on 30 Nov 2012, 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

I have both a VIQ and PIQ well above average, but I have the NVLD gap between them. So, again, the overall scores don't necessarily matter as much as the discrepancy between them.