Why is this website WrongPlanet against Simon Baron-Cohen?

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Yuugiri
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19 Feb 2013, 6:38 am

ProvokesThinking wrote:

That is in contrast to what I have read him say in interviews. In one interview he said that autistic people are very caring and if they find an animal which is hurt, they will care for it, while a psychopath doesn't care.

This has been addressed on page 2.

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ProvokesThinking
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19 Feb 2013, 6:40 am

Novastorm wrote:

Quote:

His teaching is we are a danger to society, because we can do great harm and feel no remorse.

But that is sociopaths. Not AS. Does he not differ between these? Is this guy for real? Now I'm getting scared, I know many already associate AS with lack of empathy and feelings and they couldn't be more wrong! I feel so much I have to shut myself away just to process it! However I do not express feelings the same ways as most NTs I'm learning.

Don't be afraid, he actually does differ between them, but some people here like to tell lies about him and to present him in a bad light.

ProvokesThinking
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19 Feb 2013, 6:41 am

Philosoraptor wrote:

I have heard him make differentiation between cognitive empathy (being able to read how others are feeling) and affective empathy (being able to experience how others might feel), and that autistics lack the former but not the latter and that sociopaths lack the latter but not the former. Honestly, that sounds rather accurate to me.

I join in the club of people who are surprised that the guy gets hate around here, unless there are details in his research that are clearly wrong that I am unaware of.

You are the first reasonable person of whom I read a comment here and who really reads what he says.

Yuugiri
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19 Feb 2013, 6:45 am

ProvokesThinking wrote:

Don't be afraid, he actually does differ between them, but some people here like to tell lies about him and to present him in a bad light.

ProvokesThinking wrote:

You are the first reasonable person of whom I read a comment here and who really reads what he says.

Philosoraptor no longer supports him, and this is the article that changed his mind: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/ ... aron-cohen

I think you may stumble upon it soon (making this post rather redundant), however, as you seem to be catching up on page 2 yourself.

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ProvokesThinking
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19 Feb 2013, 6:52 am

Philosoraptor wrote:

DVCal wrote:

Philosoraptor wrote:

DVCal wrote:

Philosoraptor wrote:

That was his initial idea, he has since come out and said people who are on the spectrum lack any kind of empathy, both cognitive and affective.

Is there any documentation that demonstrates his addressing this shift in opinion?

All of his latest books and papers on the subject. One book zero degree of empathy states it very clearly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/ ... aron-cohen

It looks like this confirms it. Well, in this case, lump me in the disagreement camp because he is just dead wrong on our lack of affective empathy. To the person who mentioned Freud, I can actually see a parallel. He seems to assume that our "strong moral codes" are logically-derived, much like Freud's superego.

I'm an ethical pragmatist (hence, no real emotional attachment to deantological ethical theories), but I know certain things cause deep emotional impact whenever I see them (physical pain, emotional suffering, torture, desperation, etc.). If he is implying that these triggered emotional reactions from me have nothing to do with empathy, then what the hell IS affective empathy? :roll:

I didn't read this before. Well, now I disagree with him too, up to a certain extent, I just wonder where he gets this conclusion from.

Of course there is a certain number of people with Aspergers who have a lack of affective empathy, but the majority of them actually has, I think it's strange that Simon Baron-Cohen actually generalizes this onto the whole group.

Marcia
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19 Feb 2013, 6:52 am

DVCal wrote:

His teaching is we are a danger to society, because we can do great harm and feel no remorse.

Can you please provide references? I have read a couple of his books on empathy and he quite emphatically does not make such statements about autistic people - quite the opposite.

ProvokesThinking
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19 Feb 2013, 6:56 am

Yuugiri wrote:

ProvokesThinking wrote:

Don't be afraid, he actually does differ between them, but some people here like to tell lies about him and to present him in a bad light.

ProvokesThinking wrote:

You are the first reasonable person of whom I read a comment here and who really reads what he says.

Yes, I 'm reading the posts from the first one to the last one and I just stumbled on it, I can see why you don't support him, but before I opened this topic I actually didn't know that he claimed this. It's very strange because his earlier claim was actually correct, which you can read for instance in this interview:

This is not to say that all people with autism have zero degrees of empathy, since being below average on a cognitive test of empathy does not equate to scoring zero. It may simply mean scoring statistically below the average in the general population. Nor does it mean that people with autism are necessarily below average on other components of empathy, though some may be.

In my experience whilst even adults with Asperger Syndrome may have difficulties figuring out why someone else’s remark was considered funny, or why their own remark was considered rude, or may judge others as liars when they simply are inconsistent in not doing what they said they would do, they may nevertheless have a highly developed emotional empathy, caring about how someone feels and not wanting to hurt them. If they do hurt them it is often unintentional and they feel mortified when it is pointed out, and want to rectify this. In this respect, they do have some of the components of empathy.

The bold part seems quite right to me actually.

Last edited by ProvokesThinking on 19 Feb 2013, 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

ProvokesThinking
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19 Feb 2013, 6:58 am

Marcia wrote:

DVCal wrote:

His teaching is we are a danger to society, because we can do great harm and feel no remorse.

Can you please provide references? I have read a couple of his books on empathy and he quite emphatically does not make such statements about autistic people - quite the opposite.

He said this in an interview which seems to contradict what some people here claim about him:

Many people with autism also form very strong emotional relationships with their pets, worrying about their welfare, and find that whilst they struggle to ‘read’ human behaviour and human intentions, they can read the arguably more predictable behaviour of a pet. Finally, as mentioned earlier, the difficulties with the cognitive element of empathy by no means leave people with autism devoid of a moral code, and their strong systemizing can mean that they often end up with a more principled moral code than many people without autism.

ProvokesThinking
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19 Feb 2013, 7:02 am

RawSugar wrote:

sharkattack wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

DVCal wrote:

Novastorm wrote:

Quote:

His teaching is we are a danger to society, because we can do great harm and feel no remorse.

His teaching is Sociopaths lack only affective empathy or sympathy, while aspies lack both affective empathy and cognitive empathy.

Oh well that's even better... :roll:

way to make people with autism sound worse than sociopaths.

This thing is from Israel I don't think the world needs empathy lessons from those people.

The only cone I want is with my ice cream. :lol:

I could be mistaken but...racist much?

Baron-Cohen doesn't even come from Israel, he is Brittish. Although I think that the behaviour of both a lot of Arabs and a lot of Israelis is disgusting, it's indeed quite racist to judge someone for having a certain origin, which he doesn't even seem to have in this case.

ProvokesThinking
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19 Feb 2013, 7:07 am

EXPECIALLY wrote:

GnothiSeauton wrote:

EXPECIALLY wrote:

Yeah, l've seen narcissists with pretty much zero social intuition, too so l think his entire scale is whack.

He's only considering the charming types. lt's also interesting that he acknowledges these people can lack a true soul while being charming but shrugs the possibility of an autistic person not being a charmer but still being a decent human being.

People tell me I am charming and a decent human being (I question the second part myself, done some disturbing things in my time). But that is due to me trying to be one.
I have some histrionic eccentricities both in good and bad taste (essentially, I've been raised by 6 women), as I evolved them in order to connect with people. I also learned how to perceive people in a better light after my hospitalization and succeeding involvement in various programs at my clinic over a decade ago following a suicide attempt.
The fact that my cognitive empathy is very low (I smile more or less as a developed reflex and try to have an attentive/serene look when listening to people, but quite enjoy "sharing" a laugh. I do get a bit of the "someone you see got kicked in the balls" feeling), does not mean I can't or don't want to sympathize.
Do I lack a "soul" because I act my way through social interactions (what an exercise in patience and focus it is)?
Am I twisted because I posses and work on a rather narcissistic view of what I perceive as beautiful?
I find people, life and the Universe all fascinating and always want to learn more about them.
If I can do that and try to be nice to others while causing them as little harm as possible, I don't mind being labeled in any way that people want to see me (obviously some labels will be bad and some will be good).
Morality is a very precious and fragile plaything.
Cheers

Hehe, no l don't think you lack a soul at all.

These proposed "00's'' would and it goes against some pretty classic AS traits you mentioned. l don't think these people would be curious types at all, there's no motivation to learn about the world if you truly harbor no interest in it whatsoever.

Very unlike AS in some ways and seems more like the misanthropic NTs who aren't intellectually curious but only curious enough to decode other people and manipulate them.

And l think male and female psychopaths and narcissists exist side by side with differences in the way the traits manifest and that the supposed double 6's are usually closer to being female psychopaths anyway so the way he tries to put autism at the extreme opposite end of this alleged extreme female brain is o_O

This guy is an as*hole and that scale was actually suggested to be in the DSM. l think people need to make noise about this but at least that didn't happen.

I watched interviews of Jeffrey Dahmer and I looked at his movements in court room. I 'm not sure if you think the same as me, but his way of talking and reacting remembered me of how a lot of autistic people, including myself, act.

It's quite possible that he had a combination of psychopathy and Aspergers Syndrome, so he was both 0 at cognitive empathy and 0 at affective empathy. This is just a very rare case though if this is true, it's very very hard to find autistic people with 0 affective empathy.

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19 Feb 2013, 9:21 am

DVCal wrote:

His teaching is we are a danger to society, because we can do great harm and feel no remorse.

So he teaches Autists are normal people?

DVCal
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19 Feb 2013, 9:35 am

ProvokesThinking wrote:

Yuugiri wrote:

ProvokesThinking wrote:

Don't be afraid, he actually does differ between them, but some people here like to tell lies about him and to present him in a bad light.

ProvokesThinking wrote:

You are the first reasonable person of whom I read a comment here and who really reads what he says.

At least it seems he is willing to accept that at least some aspies have affective or emotional empathy, but if you read his work he still says most on the spectrum lack both components of empathy.

DVCal
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19 Feb 2013, 9:38 am

ProvokesThinking wrote:

Marcia wrote:

DVCal wrote:

His teaching is we are a danger to society, because we can do great harm and feel no remorse.

Can you please provide references? I have read a couple of his books on empathy and he quite emphatically does not make such statements about autistic people - quite the opposite.

He clearly says we form or morality not from any empathy but from simple logic. We don't harm others because we empathize, but because it seems ilogical to us.

DVCal
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19 Feb 2013, 9:43 am

This is taken directly from Simon Baron Cohen research it self.

The ARC began work in this area by studying 'theory of mind' (ToM) deficits in autism and Asperger Syndrome. ToM is the ability to attribute mental states to others, to infer what someone else is thinking or feeling. It is one of the two major components of empathy, sometimes known as 'cognitive empathy'. The other major component is known as 'affective empathy', or the drive to respond with an appropriate emotion to someone else's mental states. Our work is showing that both components of empathy may be impaired in autism and Asperger Syndrome.

Clearly he thinks we are impaired in all kinds of empathy.

Ettina
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19 Feb 2013, 9:52 am

The truth is, Simon Baron-Cohen goes back and forth. If you press him on it, he seems to admit AS people lack cognitive empathy but not affective, but then he slips back to talking about cognitive and affective empathy as one thing. It's really annoying.

Plus, I do not have a male brain! FtM's have a male brain, I don't!

Quote:

Looks like people are conveniently turning a blind eye to the Martyr complex. l seldom believe anyone who sacrifices their own needs on a regular basis and makes a show of doing so EVER has pure intentions and in my experience they don't

They are deeply damaged types who are excellent at reading people and at their cores, have next or NO affective empathy. Essentially the same as the psychopaths he was describing. But to be fair, they may have just enough to set them apart from that group.

No, the people who sacrifice their own needs excessively are the opposite of psychopaths. Why on earth would someone do that if they don't care about others?

What happens with people like that is that they don't care about themselves. They have extremely low self-esteem, so they feel that their needs don't matter. Very sad, really.

Very often they get involved with psychopaths, though, because they're very easy to manipulate and abuse.

Quote:

These proposed "00's'' would and it goes against some pretty classic AS traits you mentioned. l don't think these people would be curious types at all, there's no motivation to learn about the world if you truly harbor no interest in it whatsoever.

There are such people, and they are interested in the world. See this article.

Quote:

Indeed, when we looked at the qualitative data available for the few boys with ASD who showed most elevated CU traits (CU scores 7–10), it was apparent that they also showed antisocial behaviour in everyday life that would not be out of place in the case history of a young person with psychopathy. For example, one boy had been expelled from his previous school after the barbaric slaughter of a chicken and a duck. Another was obsessed with anything violent or bloodthirsty, including a prominent child murder case in the UK (the James Bulger case), claiming to have himself killed a boy called Johnnie, and was said by teachers to lie to escape from trouble, and try to blame and manipulate his schoolmates.

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19 Feb 2013, 1:29 pm

Because they are a very crafty sort of NT who takes on a victim role and successfully makes people believe they want no personal gain. They get involved with psychopaths because it serves to make them look like they are being taken advantage of so people will become concerned

. lsn't it more likely they would see these people for who they are really in the beginning since they are excellent at reading people?

l would actually agree with SBC's previous statement about BPD being a 0 or at least nearly 0 condition in affective empathy but the extreme female brain he describes is similar to BPD.

lt's too easy to say"why on Earth would they do that" when the person themselves is projecting the opposite traits so people will believe they would never have less than pure intentions.

These types were initially called "borderline" because it was used to indicate that they're on the borderline of sociopathy.

lt's about reading people very well and pretending to feel what they feel so you seem very empathetic, and since the person has excellent cognitive empathy they don't have any trouble figuring out what kind of emotions they should put on display. lt's not real, they don't feel affective and/or very, very, very little affective empathy.

The gain comes from others paying attention to them, validating their delusions that are usually linked to narcissism, and/or/usually being manipulated by them.

As for his original talk about the Extreme Female Brain he described schizophrenia, l don;t know how much weight he still puts into that but it'd make more sense than some of the women he talked about in the article as a schizophrenic may actually feel other people's feelings so intensely it drives them to psychosis.

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