The possibility that autism is the human evolutionary past

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TirelessMessenger
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20 Mar 2013, 1:03 am

Good point. We think that the spectrum is part of the natural variation that biologists expect to occur in species. What we call lupinistic humans also vary widely in intelligence and other factors. We hypothesize that LFA is actually an anomaly, and that the vast majority of people on the spectrum are higher functioning. There is some evidence that this might be the case, as LFA has higher visibility so it was noticed first, but now psychologists are discovering more HFA as they look closer.

We think that in the ancestral autistic environment, there would be no impairment to speak of, since most impairment is from the viewpoint of today's dominant subspecies. If we were a species that was exploiting a systematizing, possibly semi-aquatic niche, then we can invoke the psychological concept of intelligence thresholds to say that LFA was probably good enough.



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20 Mar 2013, 1:18 am

TirelessMessenger wrote:
eric76, to address your first point, our hypothesis addresses questions from numerous fields, such as evolutionary psychology, general psychology, abnormal psychology, archaeology, cultural anthropology, genetics, neuroscience, linguistics, etc. Now while there are certainly experts in all of these fields, no one person is an expert in ALL of them. Our research group feels that one reason this hypothesis has yet to be proposed is due to the highly specialized nature of graduate and postgraduate studies, in which many academics end up becoming laypeople in their own fields. We are trying to correct that tunnel vision by connecting different fields and utilizing multiple lines of evidence.


You keep saying "we". Are there really others in your "research group" or are you trying to give yourself credence by representing that you have some kind of "research group"?

If you think you are going to make any scientific advances without being experts in the field, then you will never be anything but a joke to real scientists. It is difficult enough for experts to find the right questions to ask, nearly impossible for amateurs.

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As to your second point, that is exactly what we are arguing. A new type of human emerged from those harsh conditions which absorbed autism into its gene pool. Autistic humans would not have survived except in the pockets of environmental stability which did exist, although we believe those autistic bands were eventually also absorbed. However, we question whether the developmental delay in autism is socially constructed. To the point, we feel it is only a delay from the point of view of what we call lupinistic development. We think that young autistic children almost immediately set about their niche construction, which involves making and learning to use tools. We think this is why they ignore people in favor of objects and why they stack and line up objects -- in the ancestral environment there wouldn't have been toys to stack up and stuffed animals to line up, but there would have been a lot of rocks, and the lithic industry was vital to the survival of early humans.


Perhaps you should assume spacecraft from other planets taking care of this so-called Autistic species. I see nothing here but a bunch of useless guesses that don't even rise to the level of being conjectures.

If you want to do something, go to school and earn a PhD or two from a first rate university in the areas you find interesting. Only then will you be ready to do the research and only then will you have any chance of receiving funding to do the research.



eric76
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20 Mar 2013, 1:20 am

TirelessMessenger wrote:
Maybird, thank you for coining "lupies." Autism often appears as a serious disability because we live in a lupinistic world. We are arguing that autism is a species trying to construct a niche, just as every other species does, and often that niche goes unconstructed, which is why we reference alienation. If we lived in an autistically dominant world, lupinistic children would probably be labeled as having a serious disability.

It is caused by genetic mutations, but by as many as one thousand of them, making it by far the strongest polygenic disorder. We question at what point you say a genetic mutation causes something and at what point you can say a genome of a species is showing through.


"Autism is a species"? That is certainly one way to really blow what little credibility you have left.



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20 Mar 2013, 4:45 am

my take on the first part of the first post (labelled number 1 of "The Prior Dominance of Autism Hypothesis"):

1. there are multiple spelling errors in your paper. you need to sort that out if you want to be taken seriously as it is not excusable in a legitimate scientific paper.

2. if multiple genetic mutations that can happen to any member of the human population may cause autism (as one of the links in your paper suggests), then autistic people wouldn't qualify as a subspecies. a subspecies doesn't happen at random events across a larger population but would replicate itself mostly predictably within its own population. a subspecies is a population unto itself, not a difference within another population.

3. there is recent evidence to genetically link schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, and ADHD with autism spectrum disorders, which would mean that autism is unlikely to have its own separate origins.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Autism/33589

4. you are approaching the subject with an "intelligent design" perspective, which is not quite scientific. from your paper:

Quote:
insofar as autistic behavior seems to have a purpose, e.g. systematizing, memorizing and collecting, that these behaviors may be a part of the proposed subspecies' niche construction.

this statement presumes that an "invisible hand" of sorts has selected for these traits in the human population, which is not the way that evolution works.

****

after reading only that far and finding these difficulties with your work, i would encourage you to obtain a more substantial science background before attempting to go forward with this research. also, if you would like to improve your work by having some scientists review and critically examine your paper, there are many science forums where they would look at your paper in some depth. xkcd actually has a quite awesome science forum where they will give you some frank assistance:

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewforum.php?f=18


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rdos
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20 Mar 2013, 6:47 am

eric76 wrote:
One thing to remember about science is that it is very rare, if it is even possible, for scientific breakthroughs to be made by anyone other than experts in the field. You have to thoroughly understand the current theory to have any chance of improving upon it.


What a load of junk!

1. There are no real experts in the field of autism other than people that have the traits. This is why neurotypical researchers continuously fail to make any real advances in the field

2. Real understanding of autism cannot build on published stereotypes or psychiatrists reasoning about diagnostic criteria in a committee. Today's DSM diagnoses are utterly worthless as a way to understand autism. Because junk-in (random diagnostic criteria) causes junk-out (published research based on DSM), there really is no material that can be used to find the cause of autism.



rdos
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20 Mar 2013, 6:56 am

hyperlexian wrote:
1. there are multiple spelling errors in your paper. you need to sort that out if you want to be taken seriously as it is not excusable in a legitimate scientific paper.


A journal could fix those, so that's the least of the problem.

hyperlexian wrote:
2. if multiple genetic mutations that can happen to any member of the human population may cause autism (as one of the links in your paper suggests), then autistic people wouldn't qualify as a subspecies. a subspecies doesn't happen at random events across a larger population but would replicate itself mostly predictably within its own population. a subspecies is a population unto itself, not a difference within another population.


True. The trait distribution looks nothing like a subspecies that evolved within our lineage, but it does look like the signature of introgression followed by dilution of the phenotype.

hyperlexian wrote:
3. there is recent evidence to genetically link schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, and ADHD with autism spectrum disorders, which would mean that autism is unlikely to have its own separate origins.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Autism/33589


Yes, and a few other things as well.



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20 Mar 2013, 7:17 am

I think this, and other possible hypotheses like it, might get a boost soon as the large empirical material from Aspie Quiz gets published. This paper is currently at peer-review again in a revision stage. Given the nature of the revisions, I find it quite likely that it will become accepted eventually.

After acceptance, the plan is to focus on a few more narrow areas (probably around ToM and communication), and submit new papers that disproves prevailing ideas about ToM and the nature of the communication-related problems, using Aspie Quiz' neurodiversity definition as a reference rather than DSM.



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20 Mar 2013, 8:08 am

I'm calling bunk on this.

Chimpanzees, like us, are mostly non-autistic with a few autistics. Researchers have come up with a chimpanzee version of the Social Responsiveness Scale, a rating scale for autism in humans. It had good reliability and validity. When they reworded it to work with both humans and chimps, the chimp average was similar to the NT human average, and considerably lower than the autistic human average.

If there was a time in our past when autistics were the majority, it's before we diverged from chimps. My guess is it's when we diverged from orangutans, since they're the only solitary ape. (And they're about the furthest apes from us genetically.)



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20 Mar 2013, 8:30 am

Ettina wrote:
I'm calling bunk on this.

Chimpanzees, like us, are mostly non-autistic with a few autistics. Researchers have come up with a chimpanzee version of the Social Responsiveness Scale, a rating scale for autism in humans. It had good reliability and validity. When they reworded it to work with both humans and chimps, the chimp average was similar to the NT human average, and considerably lower than the autistic human average.

If there was a time in our past when autistics were the majority, it's before we diverged from chimps. My guess is it's when we diverged from orangutans, since they're the only solitary ape. (And they're about the furthest apes from us genetically.)


I'd call the above bunk instead.

Just because the social life-styles of chimp and NT humans do seem quite similar, this might result in those two species having similar "social responsiveness" (whatever that means).

However, solitary vs social doesn't follow lineages, rather is a trait that can (and do) exist in sister species because it is present in all primates (and probably even all animal species as well). Thus, if a species is solitary or social has nothing to do with the evolutionary past of the species, but in which environment it evolved.

In addition to that, primates are not typically characterized by "social responsiveness", but by how their social groups work, and it is pretty much a given that chimp and NT human social groups are not at all similar. Chimps are a polygamous species that doesn't pairbond, for instance. There is a lot more similarity between bonobo and humans than between chimp and humans.



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20 Mar 2013, 8:44 am

rdos wrote:
eric76 wrote:
One thing to remember about science is that it is very rare, if it is even possible, for scientific breakthroughs to be made by anyone other than experts in the field. You have to thoroughly understand the current theory to have any chance of improving upon it.


What a load of junk!

1. There are no real experts in the field of autism other than people that have the traits. This is why neurotypical researchers continuously fail to make any real advances in the field

2. Real understanding of autism cannot build on published stereotypes or psychiatrists reasoning about diagnostic criteria in a committee. Today's DSM diagnoses are utterly worthless as a way to understand autism. Because junk-in (random diagnostic criteria) causes junk-out (published research based on DSM), there really is no material that can be used to find the cause of autism.


:cheers:


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20 Mar 2013, 8:47 am

rdos wrote:
I think this, and other possible hypotheses like it, might get a boost soon as the large empirical material from Aspie Quiz gets published. This paper is currently at peer-review again in a revision stage. Given the nature of the revisions, I find it quite likely that it will become accepted eventually.

After acceptance, the plan is to focus on a few more narrow areas (probably around ToM and communication), and submit new papers that disproves prevailing ideas about ToM and the nature of the communication-related problems, using Aspie Quiz' neurodiversity definition as a reference rather than DSM.


rdos, I applaud you. It's so nice to hear someone is out there actively trying to put right all the wrongs about autism/Asperger's.


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eric76
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20 Mar 2013, 9:05 am

rdos wrote:
eric76 wrote:
One thing to remember about science is that it is very rare, if it is even possible, for scientific breakthroughs to be made by anyone other than experts in the field. You have to thoroughly understand the current theory to have any chance of improving upon it.


What a load of junk!

1. There are no real experts in the field of autism other than people that have the traits. This is why neurotypical researchers continuously fail to make any real advances in the field

2. Real understanding of autism cannot build on published stereotypes or psychiatrists reasoning about diagnostic criteria in a committee. Today's DSM diagnoses are utterly worthless as a way to understand autism. Because junk-in (random diagnostic criteria) causes junk-out (published research based on DSM), there really is no material that can be used to find the cause of autism.


In case you missed it, the OP is suggesting that there was some kind of "Austics species" of man (that is junk) several tens of thousands of years ago that somehow got merged in with other lines of man. Now THAT is nothing but rubbish.



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20 Mar 2013, 9:11 am

:shameonyou:

Now, where is your open mind Eric? The very fact that someone is brave enough to put their hypothesis out there, the very fact that they are trying to solve the great mystery that is autism, deserves respect, not shooting down in flames. Where is your proof that he is wrong? I'm not saying he's right either, but you can't just dismiss things out of hand because they are not peer-reviewed scientific papers every time. I thought us Aspies were supposed to be good at thinking outside of the box, pioneering, trail-blazing and such-like.


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20 Mar 2013, 9:22 am

whirlingmind wrote:
:shameonyou:

Now, where is your open mind Eric? The very fact that someone is brave enough to put their hypothesis out there, the very fact that they are trying to solve the great mystery that is autism, deserves respect, not shooting down in flames. Where is your proof that he is wrong? I'm not saying he's right either, but you can't just dismiss things out of hand because they are not peer-reviewed scientific papers every time. I thought us Aspies were supposed to be good at thinking outside of the box, pioneering, trail-blazing and such-like.


Being good at thinking outside of the box may be useful in some situations, but it does not even begin to substitute for expertise in a field.



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20 Mar 2013, 9:34 am

Woe betide he with a closed mind:

http://us.macmillan.com/greatdiscoverie ... eLlewellyn

Quote:
Great Discoveries & Amazing Adventures looks at the moment of discovery and the deeper stories behind some of the world's most astonishing finds. Archaeologists, explorers, naturalists, and even ordinary people have all made discoveries that have caused the world to marvel and have advanced our knowledge in an important way.


https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/discov ... 1565?mt=11


Quote:
A fresh look at science, history and technology - 25 stories of some of the great discoveries of our time including: Two brothers, who own a bicycle shop in Ohio, build a bicycle that can fly. An American student discovers the secret of DNA. In an Italian university, a junior professor predicts the distance objects fall in space. Patterns of dots that enable blind people to read are discovered by a fifteen year old boy. An uneducated janitor in London discovers simple patterns of electricity. Penicillin is discovered when wind blows in some dirt from an open window. Einstein's narration introduces the insight in each story.


Eric, you are just too plain hung up on professional snobbery my friend.


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20 Mar 2013, 9:58 am

i think that people with many different backgrounds can come up with scientific insight, but if a person wants to publish a credible hypothesis then they *might* need to have an educational background in order to have their ideas properly established and vetted. some people don't need to have that education in order to generate a hypothesis that makes scientific sense, whereas other people are missing too much knowledge to make scientific sense without the degrees.

for example, we have nuts like Jenny McCarthy pretty much making stuff up and she is able to get it published in non-scientific journals, but i don't think we should consider her credible as an actual scientist so she probably could do with some education. but there are isolated examples of rare modern scientists who were able to advance a field of study without having the expected education.

it can also depend on whether they want to be considered reputable in their field or not. people can self-publish but that won't usually get their ideas implemented as seamlessly into clinical practice or the general body of scientific knowledge.

the theory that this thread links to has enough errors that i would encourage the authors to seek further education or more detailed feedback from people in a scientific field. as it stands now, there are just too many holes in it for it to float, and if they better understood the concepts they are using in the paper they could see which direction they should go in.

i don't think that only people with degrees should be taken seriously when they are doing research or publishing hypotheses... as long as the research or information in it is scientifically sound.


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