The possibility that autism is the human evolutionary past

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eric76
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20 Mar 2013, 3:45 pm

rdos wrote:
eric76 wrote:
That's true, but there are so many instances of people trying to push junk science that without an advanced degree it is very difficult to get any serious consideration of the work.


I see this as a serious problem of the peer-review system. I mean, there are lot of papers written at universities for no other reason than to publish something, and who says those are any more interesting than papers with a possible novel approach from somebody outside of a institution?


That's one of the reasons for peer review -- to decide what is important and what is not important. Things do get by on occasion, but for the most part it does a pretty good job.

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eric76 wrote:
More importantly, getting the money it takes to do the research is going to be nearly impossible unless they are recognized researchers in the field.


It is a myth that autism research must use a lot of money in order to get anywhere. It is quite possible to do such research without funding. You just need to be a little inventive.


The OP wants to completely revise the genetic history of mankind and you think that he can do so without funding?



hyperlexian
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20 Mar 2013, 3:49 pm

biologists are not that sketchy on the concept of species. they would not consider aspies to be a separate species if they did not have a definite population of their own that was differentiated from NTs, yet aspies are fully interspersed within the greater population. and ASDs have not been shown to be fully heritable as too many genes are involved. for aspies to be a separate species, any 2 aspies that mate would have to give rise to aspie offspring, and that is not necessarily the case.

my dispute with your understanding of natural selection is not semantics - it is just how natural selection works. random mutations arise within a population and if they are not disadvantageous (i.e. they didn't kill anyone or prevent anyone from procreating) then they may be passed on. many such mutations may in fact be disadvantageous and may kill the organism, as i said, or they may be neutral. a preponderance of such mutations can give rise to a visible condition like autism.

these mutations are not created or selected to be advantages, at best they are simply protective when other options turn out to be disadvantageous. please note, i am discussion evolutionary biology, not evolutionary psychology. i thought that was clear when i said "natural selection", but just in case.

aspies are shown in every survey to less chance of marrying or having children than NTs in their cohort. not much more to say about that. here is one such survey:

Quote:
People who were single (and had never been married) were more likely to be assessed with ASD than people of all other marital statuses combined(i.e. those who were either currently married or cohabiting or who had been married in the past).

http://www.esds.ac.uk/doc/6379%5Cmrdoc% ... report.pdf

we do not know what the ancestral environment was actually like for humans - the supposed experts do not even agree what sort of sexual relationships they had, much less what social or intellectual traits would have been least disadvantageous (beyond the obvious assumption that they were much like us).

about the genetically related conditions, it makes absolutely no sense that AS is its own subspecies or species if there are other conditions on the same genes. people with these other conditions would have to be part of the same species, and i do not see the same advantages in depression or schizophrenia that you are claiming for autistic people.


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Ettina
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20 Mar 2013, 4:09 pm

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Actually, that is a false claim. Differences in mating behavior have a whole lot to do with autism, it is just that we don't yet know this from published science.

In regards to "showing interest" to each others, we have these traits in Aspie Quiz about partner obsessions. Taking those into account, I'd say autistics score sky-high on this dimension when NTs and chimps score low. Who says we must measure social interest the way NTs do?


The Aspie Quiz has not been peer-reviewed. Can you find any source from a peer-reviewed journal suggesting any relationship between autism and monogamy vs polygamy?



eric76
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20 Mar 2013, 4:11 pm

Regarding the genetics of Autism, my understanding is that recent research has shown that at least some of the genetic differences found in Autism appear to be due to mutations of genes that everyone has and that both the normal gene and the mutated gene occupy the same place the particular piece of DNA in which they were found.

Furthermore, at least some of these mutations might not necessarily result in Autism, but instead serve to raise the risk of Autism. I assume that the more of these mutant genes one has, the more likely they are Autistic, but I do not know if that has been shown to be true.

Of course, the genetic research in the issue is far from complete. I don't see how this can possibly square with the idea of Autism coming from a ancient people with a different human line, much less a different species -- the idea of it being a different species completely ignores the notion of what are species. In order for OP's idea to have a chance, you would have to assume that there were two different lines of humans, one with normal genes and one with the mutant genes in the same places and that the two lines of humans mixed together.

If what the geneticists seem to be finding is true, then no such explanation of two lines of humans intermingling is needed at all to account for Autism. Instead of a special source for these genes, the real explanation would be a far more plausible and simpler and consistent explanation of genetic mutations, the sort that are known to occur and to have occurred over a long period of time.

So my limited understanding of the current science and the current research is that it is moving forward in such a way as to push the idea of a separate line of Autistic people into the dustbin.



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20 Mar 2013, 5:03 pm

eric76 wrote:

If what the geneticists seem to be finding is true, then no such explanation of two lines of humans intermingling is needed at all to account for Autism. Instead of a special source for these genes, the real explanation would be a far more plausible and simpler and consistent explanation of genetic mutations, the sort that are known to occur and to have occurred over a long period of time.

So my limited understanding of the current science and the current research is that it is moving forward in such a way as to push the idea of a separate line of Autistic people into the dustbin.


Yup.

I view most of these ideas that "autism" denotes a separate species of humans, either in the past or as a modern form of differentiation, to be rooted more in fantasy and wish-fulfillment than anything based on good science.

And I really wish the schools would do a better job of teaching what evolution and natural selection are.


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20 Mar 2013, 8:35 pm

eric76 wrote:
You keep saying "we". Are there really others in your "research group" or are you trying to give yourself credence by representing that you have some kind of "research group"?


I must admit OP, I have begun to wonder whether it is just yourself. It comes across as the ideas of an individual. Is there more than one person proposing this hypothesis?

(Oh no, Eric, I've done it again! :wall:)


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eric76
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20 Mar 2013, 8:51 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
(Oh no, Eric, I've done it again! :wall:)


If we didn't agree on occasion, that would mean one of us was wrong all of the time and I'm not too sure which of us it would be. :)



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20 Mar 2013, 8:53 pm

eric76 wrote:
whirlingmind wrote:
(Oh no, Eric, I've done it again! :wall:)


If we didn't agree on occasion, that would mean one of us was wrong all of the time and I'm not too sure which of us it would be. :)


Don't go spoiling it with logic! :wink:


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whirlingmind
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20 Mar 2013, 9:36 pm

Hey, I didn't read OPs hypothesis in depth, but isn't this more or less the same thing:

http://www.radicalpsychologytv.org/autism.html


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whirlingmind
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20 Mar 2013, 9:56 pm

Another evolutionary bunch of theories:

"Evolutionary approaches to autism- an overview and integration"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3277413/


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21 Mar 2013, 2:03 am

Okay my fellow autistic humans. Forgive my tone in advance, or don't, I really don't care.

Hyperlexian. The environment exerts pressure on organisms and traits which are advantageous to that pressure get selected for. It is also possible for neutral traits to be passed on as well, or as you say, disadvantageous traits that don't kill the organism. But, natural selection is all about selective pressures. My dear, go read Darwin's book.

Look. This post was started with the term "possibility." I claim to have a hypothesis, and when I don't, I advance research questions. If these terms are not clear to you, I can explain them.

I don't know whether all humans used to be autistic or not. But let me tell you, there are certainly some things that I want to know.

Archaeologists argue all of the time about why for about half our species' existence, we lacked social sophistication, we had an insistence on sameness, and we avoided conflict with each other and with dangerous animals. Now, autistic humans lack social sophistication, we insist on sameness and routine, and we generally avoid conflict. Does that mean pre-behaviorally modern humans were autistic? I don't know, but I also don't know that they weren't. And no one outside of archaeologists are looking at this problem, or even aware it exists. But if it can be answered, then I want to know.

What about the evolution of human intelligence? You often hear that social explanations, but the truth is that no one knows. The gulf between us and chimpanzees is so large that Darwin had no idea how to explain it, and his cofounder Alfred Russell Wallace, thought human intelligence was a gift from God. As it stands, we evolved intelligence to keep track of all of the gossip, and things like doing physics or chemistry are fortunate byproducts of that intelligence, not the drivers of cerebral evolution themselves. Well if you want to look at the NTs and say that's how we got so smart, then go right ahead. I see no other challenge to the social theory than autism. Do I know that we are responsible for evolving intelligence? No I don't, but I know that no one else has proposed it.

Does no one else care that a woman who studies lungs had 49 autistic kids come into her office and they all had a different lung structure? I don't know if that provides any link to the aquatic ape hypothesis, just like I don't know if the pressure relieving feeling I get by going swimming is related to it either, but I think it is a question worth asking.

I want to know why my condition began in my mother's womb. I want to know why my ENTIRE brain is wired differently than an NTs. I want to know why my entire family has autistic traits. I want to know why if up to one thousand genes go into making me who I am, then how in evolutionary history were those genes selected for, because chance mutations happen, but they do not with that many genes without pressures being exerted.

Get it through your heads that we are the only ones who are going to figure us out. "Science" has already decided that we are diseased, we are disordered. But you know what we really are to them? WE ARE A COMMODITY. As long as parents will pay for research to find a cure, oh and they will pay, then we will be classified as something that needs to be cured.

Someone has to challenge the paradigms. God knows it won't be established scientists, least of all in an era of budget cuts.

Or don't. Have fun waiting for your cure.



eric76
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21 Mar 2013, 2:43 am

whirlingmind wrote:
Another evolutionary bunch of theories:

"Evolutionary approaches to autism- an overview and integration"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3277413/


Keep in mind that the contents of the paper does not make any wild and fanciful assumptions that there must have been some kind of Autistic lineage of mankind that merged to form the current lineage.

Here's the abstract:
Quote:
Autism is a highly heritable neurodevelopmental disorder, which greatly reduces reproductive success. The combination of high heritability and low reproductive success raises an evolutionary question: why was autism not eliminated by natural selection? We review different perspectives on the evolution of autism and propose an integration which emphasizes epistatic interactions between the effects of genes during development. It is well-established that autism is a polygenic disorder, and that the genes contributing to autism interact. If a disorder is polygenic, it is likely that the genes underlying the disorder are also involved in traits that are beneficial for the individual. For example, it is possible that genes involved in the development of autism are also involved in the development of intelligence. As intelligence is positively correlated with reproductive success, genes involved in autism can possibly spread in the population. We propose that in most individuals, the interactions between genes result in normal or high intelligence and the absence of autism. However, in some unlucky situations, often in combination with spontaneous negative mutations, the interactions between genes can lead to the development of autism (or other pathologies). Thus, the combination of high heritability and low reproductive success in autism can be explained from an evolutionary developmental perspective that emphasizes the role of epistatic interactions in polygenic disorders.


That genes can have both beneficial and detrimental aspects has been known for quite a while. One well known example is of a gene that causes sickle cell anemia that helps protect the individual from malaria if the gene is present on one strand of DNA, but not both.

The authors of the paper are presenting an argument along these lines in the paper -- that the genes concerning Autism may provide advantages for those carrying the genes who are not Autistic or who are HFA.

Even if this does turn out to be true, it really doesn't support the OP's argument at all.



rdos
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21 Mar 2013, 2:54 am

eric76 wrote:
So my limited understanding of the current science and the current research is that it is moving forward in such a way as to push the idea of a separate line of Autistic people into the dustbin.


Um? Maybe you should read this study then:
Voineagu I, Wang X, Johnston P, Lowe JK, Tian Y et al (2011) Transcriptomic
analysis of autistic brain reveals convergent molecular pathology. Nature
474(7351):380-4. doi: 10.1038/nature10110



eric76
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21 Mar 2013, 3:03 am

TirelessMessenger wrote:
The environment exerts pressure on organisms and traits which are advantageous to that pressure get selected for.


That's a mild (i.e. not very serious) misstatement. Those traits that help an organism multiply are selected. Traits that do not give the organism a reproductive advantage are not selected for even if they are advantageous for other reasons.

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It is also possible for neutral traits to be passed on as well, or as you say, disadvantageous traits that don't kill the organism. But, natural selection is all about selective pressures. My dear, go read Darwin's book.

Look. This post was started with the term "possibility." I claim to have a hypothesis, and when I don't, I advance research questions. If these terms are not clear to you, I can explain them.

I don't know whether all humans used to be autistic or not. But let me tell you, there are certainly some things that I want to know.

Archaeologists argue all of the time about why for about half our species' existence, we lacked social sophistication, we had an insistence on sameness, and we avoided conflict with each other and with dangerous animals. Now, autistic humans lack social sophistication, we insist on sameness and routine, and we generally avoid conflict. Does that mean pre-behaviorally modern humans were autistic? I don't know, but I also don't know that they weren't. And no one outside of archaeologists are looking at this problem, or even aware it exists. But if it can be answered, then I want to know.


Can you provide citations about the archaeologists arguments? I'm not saying that's wrong -- I'm saying that the arguments are completely unfamiliar to me and I'd prefer to see the arguments.

Quote:
What about the evolution of human intelligence? You often hear that social explanations, but the truth is that no one knows. The gulf between us and chimpanzees is so large that Darwin had no idea how to explain it, and his cofounder Alfred Russell Wallace, thought human intelligence was a gift from God. As it stands, we evolved intelligence to keep track of all of the gossip, and things like doing physics or chemistry are fortunate byproducts of that intelligence, not the drivers of cerebral evolution themselves. Well if you want to look at the NTs and say that's how we got so smart, then go right ahead. I see no other challenge to the social theory than autism. Do I know that we are responsible for evolving intelligence? No I don't, but I know that no one else has proposed it.


Evolution has progressed well beyond Darwin and Wallace. Keeping track of gossip?

Quote:
Does no one else care that a woman who studies lungs had 49 autistic kids come into her office and they all had a different lung structure? I don't know if that provides any link to the aquatic ape hypothesis, just like I don't know if the pressure relieving feeling I get by going swimming is related to it either, but I think it is a question worth asking.


There have been a number of papers published on the differences in lung structure. A casual look at them didn't lead to any that said that the lung structure was somehow aquatic. Can you provide citations to these "aquatic" lung papers?

Quote:
I want to know why my condition began in my mother's womb. I want to know why my ENTIRE brain is wired differently than an NTs. I want to know why my entire family has autistic traits. I want to know why if up to one thousand genes go into making me who I am, then how in evolutionary history were those genes selected for, because chance mutations happen, but they do not with that many genes without pressures being exerted.


I'm not sure where you keep getting this "one thousand genes". The actual numbers of genes that create the risk of Autism are likely to be much lower than that.

Quote:
Get it through your heads that we are the only ones who are going to figure us out. "Science" has already decided that we are diseased, we are disordered. But you know what we really are to them? WE ARE A COMMODITY. As long as parents will pay for research to find a cure, oh and they will pay, then we will be classified as something that needs to be cured.

Someone has to challenge the paradigms. God knows it won't be established scientists, least of all in an era of budget cuts.

Or don't. Have fun waiting for your cure.


BS. There is a great deal of medical research going on to determine the causes of Autism. Autism is far from forgotten or ignored in the scientific community.

There is one thing that you can absolutely count on -- any research that enables the numbers of children born with Autism to be greatly reduced is going to come from the scientific community.



rdos
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21 Mar 2013, 3:09 am

eric76 wrote:
There is one thing that you can absolutely count on -- any research that enables the numbers of children born with Autism to be greatly reduced is going to come from the scientific community.


So you applaud that the scientific community want to commit genocide on the autistic population?



eric76
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21 Mar 2013, 3:10 am

rdos wrote:
eric76 wrote:
So my limited understanding of the current science and the current research is that it is moving forward in such a way as to push the idea of a separate line of Autistic people into the dustbin.


Um? Maybe you should read this study then:
Voineagu I, Wang X, Johnston P, Lowe JK, Tian Y et al (2011) Transcriptomic
analysis of autistic brain reveals convergent molecular pathology. Nature
474(7351):380-4. doi: 10.1038/nature10110


The link is http://bms.ucsf.edu/sites/ucsf-bms.ixm.ca/files/20111110.weiss_.lauren.pdf.

Precisely how does this paper support the idea of there being a separate line of Autistic people in prehistory? I sure don't see it at all from just glancing through the paper.