Why are people here so against a cure for those who need it?

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eric76
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07 Apr 2013, 4:38 pm

DVCal wrote:
So many people on the spectrum suffer terribly, they have no ability to communicate. Many of them lack any meaningful cognitive function, they just sit around making noises, rocking, playing with their hands, just existing, not actually living. How can you oppose a cure that would help these people.

Even many of us so called higher functioning people want a cure, we see damage that autism has caused us and want to be rid of it. How can you work to deny us a cure.


I'm not sure how a cure would work for those who already have it. The best (and possibly only) cure is prevention, if that is possible. There is little chance that there is some magic shot (or series of shots) that will cure autism.

I think that what is needed for many who are on the spectrum is therapy to help deal with autism and support in learning how to live in this world.



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07 Apr 2013, 6:52 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
If it's good for you, why cure it? Nobody is going to force this to happen. If it's bad for you, you can cure it. But I think even a so-called "cure" would change much less about a person than most people think.


I do not want a cure and I do not wrap up any part of my identity in "Asperger's." If anything, I think it is the wrong diagnosis and do not identify with the terminology.

I think the reasons are more nuanced than just feeling like one's identity is threatened. Being autistic impacts how one thinks and perceives and possibly on a rather fundamental level. If you take me and remove the autism, then I am going to be quite different. I do like who I am, and I do not see why I should become another person with different thoughts and perceptions to meet someone else's definition of "healthy."


That's the same way that I feel about my AS. I don't wrap my identity around my autism. The reason I feel that cure is a 4-letter word is because that word implies that I'm broken goods. I'm not broken goods. I have a wonderful and unique way of thinking and seeing the world that I wouldn't be able to enjoy if I was cured. I'm not sick or diseased and nor do I have an illness, so I don't wish or need to be cured of my autism. I'm healthy the way that I am.


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07 Apr 2013, 6:57 pm

DVCal wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
DVCal wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
DVCal wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Yes geniuses need a cure.


Most people on the spectrum are not geniuses, most pee and sh** everywhere, and play with their own feces.

Isn't intelligence on the autistic spectrum distributed using the same bell curve as for NTs?

I have met people from all over the spectrum, and none played with their faeces.

I think some people are opposed to a cure because they are afraid they would be forced, either physically or by other means such as the withdrawal of support, to take the cure.


No it isn't, most on the spectrum have very little cognitive function, and have very low IQ. I am talking 20 to 30 IQ points total. Sad really.

This study disagrees with both of us: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21272389

Only 16% of children with autism have an IQ of less than 50. And that's those diagnosed- i.e. the most obviously affected.


55% with an IQ of less than 70 is still bad, also the 16% with less than 50% is terrible still. This people lack any important cognitive thought. They just exist.


Speaking as someone who's known and spent time with actual ret*d people, from mild to severe, that is nonsense. They do not "just exist".


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CockneyRebel
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07 Apr 2013, 7:07 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
DVCal wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
DVCal wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
DVCal wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Yes geniuses need a cure.


Most people on the spectrum are not geniuses, most pee and sh** everywhere, and play with their own feces.

Isn't intelligence on the autistic spectrum distributed using the same bell curve as for NTs?

I have met people from all over the spectrum, and none played with their faeces.

I think some people are opposed to a cure because they are afraid they would be forced, either physically or by other means such as the withdrawal of support, to take the cure.


No it isn't, most on the spectrum have very little cognitive function, and have very low IQ. I am talking 20 to 30 IQ points total. Sad really.

This study disagrees with both of us: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21272389

Only 16% of children with autism have an IQ of less than 50. And that's those diagnosed- i.e. the most obviously affected.


55% with an IQ of less than 70 is still bad, also the 16% with less than 50% is terrible still. This people lack any important cognitive thought. They just exist.


Speaking as someone who's known and spent time with actual ret*d people, from mild to severe, that is nonsense. They do not "just exist".


I concur with Who_Am_I. I've also spent time with those people and from what I know, many of them have real jobs in the community, many of them are able to live independently and many of them can come up with a lot of interesting ideas and they're very fun to talk to. They do more than just exist and the more we can get people to see that, the happier everybody will be.


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CockneyRebel
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07 Apr 2013, 7:10 pm

I'd also like to add that people on the spectrum have brains that are an average of 10-15% larger than the brains of the general population, therefore we have 10-15% more brain cells and neurons than the general population.


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Who_Am_I
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07 Apr 2013, 7:19 pm

I'd like to add that making dehumanising statements against people is not the way to get help for them. The most severely ret*d humans are just as much people as you and I.


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07 Apr 2013, 7:28 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
If it's good for you, why cure it? Nobody is going to force this to happen. If it's bad for you, you can cure it. But I think even a so-called "cure" would change much less about a person than most people think.


I do not want a cure and I do not wrap up any part of my identity in "Asperger's." If anything, I think it is the wrong diagnosis and do not identify with the terminology.

I think the reasons are more nuanced than just feeling like one's identity is threatened. Being autistic impacts how one thinks and perceives and possibly on a rather fundamental level. If you take me and remove the autism, then I am going to be quite different. I do like who I am, and I do not see why I should become another person with different thoughts and perceptions to meet someone else's definition of "healthy."


That's the same way that I feel about my AS. I don't wrap my identity around my autism. The reason I feel that cure is a 4-letter word is because that word implies that I'm broken goods. I'm not broken goods. I have a wonderful and unique way of thinking and seeing the world that I wouldn't be able to enjoy if I was cured. I'm not sick or diseased and nor do I have an illness, so I don't wish or need to be cured of my autism. I'm healthy the way that I am.




I completely agree with Cockney Rebel and Verdandi.



paris75007
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07 Apr 2013, 7:30 pm

When discussing the IQ of people on the lower end of the spectrum, I think everyone would do well to remember that our current methods of testing have no way to actually determine their level of intelligence if they are non-verbal. The WAIS is overwhelmingly a VERBAL test. You could be very intelligent, but if you have a communicative problems, it's going to come out much, much lower than it should. For me, I oppose a "cure" for autism because I know that realistically, that is never going to be a magic pill that we take as adults (who have the ability to decide for themselves) to make what we don't like about autism go away. After the brain has developed, it is too late. It will likely involve gene therapy administered in utero or in infancy. We can't tell at that point whether we saved someone from suffering with severe problems or denied humanity another Einstein by stopping the brain from developing in an autistic fashion.



jellybaby
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07 Apr 2013, 7:36 pm

Has anyone read flowers of algernon?
In this book a mentally ret*d man is cured of his retardation and he suddenly becomes extremely intelligent. But he was happier before the surgery that "cures"
I would suggest that for anyone who has strong opinions about a cure for autistism. It deals alot with the consequences and morals about changing someones brain.



paris75007
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07 Apr 2013, 7:55 pm

That isn't how I remember that book...Charlie gains the intelligence and is relatively happy, but then discovers that it will not last and he will go back to the way he was before, and that process, which he is aware of as it's happening, devastates him. So the morality question is was it right to put him through that, or should we just let people be as long as they have a reasonable quality of life? It is best not to toy with changing essential qualities of an individual, but accept them as they are and give them the tools and acceptance to be happy with that. What if we discover the ability to "cure" average IQ...should we make everyone a genius? Could we be happy and have society function if everyone were a genius? Or would we just have a bunch of miserable, bored people working average jobs not suited to their intelligence level that would have otherwise been satisfying for them?



eric76
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07 Apr 2013, 7:56 pm

jellybaby wrote:
Has anyone read flowers of algernon?
In this book a mentally ret*d man is cured of his retardation and he suddenly becomes extremely intelligent. But he was happier before the surgery that "cures"
I would suggest that for anyone who has strong opinions about a cure for autistism. It deals alot with the consequences and morals about changing someones brain.


I read it many years ago, probably in the mid to late 60s and don't really remember much of the plot.

I would hesitate before thinking that it represents what would really happen, though.



paris75007
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07 Apr 2013, 8:04 pm

"I've also spent time with those people and from what I know, many of them have real jobs in the community, many of them are able to live independently and many of them can come up with a lot of interesting ideas and they're very fun to talk to. They do more than just exist and the more we can get people to see that, the happier everybody will be."

Comments like this one make me wish WP had a "like" button.



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07 Apr 2013, 8:08 pm

Its not being trapped in your mind its being trapped in a universe.



Adamantius
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07 Apr 2013, 8:32 pm

Because I fear autistic people will be cured the same way people with Downs Syndrome and Cystic Fibrosis have been "cured" . . . through eugenic abortion.

I used Google Scholar to search "post prenatal testing abortion rates" these are for the US and Canada.

Places like NIH and CDC have written on that, and you can research it for yourself. Percentages vary. Between 90-92% of Down's Syndrome kids are aborted following prenatal testing. I saw one stat that says 95% of Cystic Fibrosis kids are aborted.

Down's kids and Cystic Fibrosis kids aren't being demonized by the media like Aspergers kids and teens are, so I can only imagine the abortion rates for autistic kids would be higher than 95% once a prenatal test is developed.



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07 Apr 2013, 8:37 pm

paris75007 wrote:
That isn't how I remember that book...Charlie gains the intelligence and is relatively happy, but then discovers that it will not last and he will go back to the way he was before, and that process, which he is aware of as it's happening, devastates him. So the morality question is was it right to put him through that, or should we just let people be as long as they have a reasonable quality of life? It is best not to toy with changing essential qualities of an individual, but accept them as they are and give them the tools and acceptance to be happy with that. What if we discover the ability to "cure" average IQ...should we make everyone a genius? Could we be happy and have society function if everyone were a genius? Or would we just have a bunch of miserable, bored people working average jobs not suited to their intelligence level that would have otherwise been satisfying for them?


Yeah , you put it alot better then me. Im not very good at explaning things sorry.
I was more referring to when he becomes so intelligent that he actually alianates the people around him, he experiences being misunderstood through lack of intlligence and having too much.
Anyway sorry if it was not relavent, the discussion about iq just reminded me of the book



paris75007
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07 Apr 2013, 8:44 pm

No...it was a very good point to what we were talking about :) A major theme of the book is "Just because science may be able to change a human being fundamentally to suit the norm, doesn't mean it should." Right on target.