Severe PTSD, not Asperger's

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07 May 2013, 1:48 pm

That was a professional opinion, which I got today. Severe PTSD and disassociation episodes. A theory of mind test I took also came back as not indicating Asperger's. But I came back as having very low affective empathy but significantly above-average cognitive empathy on another test.

Has anyone else heard of this?

Noetic
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07 May 2013, 2:13 pm

It doesn't have to be either / or. Only quite severely autistic or mentally ret*d individuals are still unable to pass ToM tests in adulthood.

CygnusAtratus
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07 May 2013, 2:38 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

The symptoms of the two conditions can certainly overlap, but I think you're probably the best expert on your own personality, provided you've taken the time to have a good hard look at yourself.

Tyri0n
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07 May 2013, 3:16 pm

CygnusAtratus wrote:

Tyri0n wrote:

The symptoms of the two conditions can certainly overlap, but I think you're probably the best expert on your own personality, provided you've taken the time to have a good hard look at yourself.

Yeah, I have. My best guess would be mild Asperger's + BPD, with PTSD subsumed into BPD. I definitely have some autistic patterns and even abilities that I don't think would be fully explained by either PTSD or BPD. I think, if anything, AS is a source of strength and definitely not my biggest problem atm.

Dillogic
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07 May 2013, 4:06 pm

Noetic wrote:

Only quite severely autistic or mentally ret*d individuals are still unable to pass ToM tests in adulthood.

I failed them as an adult, and I'm not severely autistic.

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07 May 2013, 4:11 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

Do you recall what the theory of mind tests were? Because - especially at your age - they're really not diagnostic for autism spectrum disorders. While many of adults fail the Sally-Anne test (for example), many others are able to pass it.

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07 May 2013, 4:42 pm

Verdandi wrote:

Tyri0n wrote:

It was a "higher-order" theory of mind test developed for adults, specifically, with a cutoff range for normal. I scored well within the normal range. Anyway, me having a ToM was also based on clinical observations. I also took some empathy tests that showed above-average cognitive empathy and low affective empathy (though these terms were not used). I still think I have mild Asperger's but just have worse things to worry about.

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07 May 2013, 4:44 pm

Fair enough.

My point wasn't so much to express skepticism about you being told you're not autistic as to express skepticism about the use of theory of mind tests as diagnostic of autism.

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07 May 2013, 4:50 pm

Verdandi wrote:

Fair enough.

My point wasn't so much to express skepticism about you being told you're not autistic as to express skepticism about the use of theory of mind tests as diagnostic of autism.

Anyway, Asperger's is based on behavioral criteria and childhood history, not neurological profile. I definitely fulfill the criteria for Asperger's; therefore, I have Asperger's. I am just the example who proves that the criteria are flawed. NLD and severe PTSD or even severe PTSD causing severe NLD + BPD combo can meet the criteria for Asperger's pretty easily. Come to think of it, NLD + other PD's could as well, and some PD's (e.g. Schizoid and Schizotypal) could probably do so all by themselves, given the right circumstances.

I may have an environmentally-caused form of Asperger's, given that I meet the criteria for Asperger's but possibly due to environmental causes related to severe physical and sexual abuse/PTSD/BPD. When I have an inappropriate social response, a clinician is not going to inquire into why: I am going to be marked as not reading social cues, even if the actual reason for my behavior is simply not liking the person.

I think the battery of tests I took, their remarkable internal consistency, and all the outside info I provided allowed for a very accurate assessment.

undercaffeinated
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07 May 2013, 5:37 pm

I recently came across a report that looked at WAIS-III results in older adults with Asperger's and HFA... to quote a section of the report:

Quote:

The Asperger syndrome group performed significantly well on Comprehension. High scores on Comprehension in this group seem to contradict former research results (Klin et al. 2005; Mayes and Calhoun 2003; Siegel et al. 1996). However, people with Asperger syndrome often try to function in society by analyzing social situations at a cognitive level, which has been described as using an 'explicit theory of mind' (Frith and Happé 1999). A extremely well developed explicit theory of mind may have caused the Asperger syndrome group to have such high scores on Comprehension.

...to me that would suggest that one shouldn't conclude too much from an older individual's results on a theory of mind or cognitive empathy test. I've also seen other studies that found (by some measures) fairly high emotional IQs in many people with Asperger syndrome -- though the same individuals may still have trouble when they're actually in social situations.

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07 May 2013, 6:24 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

Fair enough.

My point wasn't so much to express skepticism about you being told you're not autistic as to express skepticism about the use of theory of mind tests as diagnostic of autism.

If you have problems understanding humour, literal understanding that is more than would be "normal" then your diagnosis of AS is likely to be correct no matter what else you have.

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07 May 2013, 7:06 pm

whirlingmind wrote:

Tyri0n wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

Fair enough.

My point wasn't so much to express skepticism about you being told you're not autistic as to express skepticism about the use of theory of mind tests as diagnostic of autism.

If you have problems understanding humour, literal understanding that is more than would be "normal" then your diagnosis of AS is likely to be correct no matter what else you have.

Me having trouble with humor? Definitely not. In real life, I am one of the funniest people I know and almost always get other people's jokes too, except when I don't understand the pop culture reference.

If I have Asperger's, this is definitely not indicative of it.

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07 May 2013, 7:09 pm

undercaffeinated wrote:

I recently came across a report that looked at WAIS-III results in older adults with Asperger's and HFA... to quote a section of the report:

Quote:

I have trouble projecting energy in social situations and trouble with prosody. Also, social anxiety (mild) and being closed off. Also, extreme fear of rejection, negativity, hostility, and avoidance. Not much trouble reading nonverbal social cues, if any. This has been confirmed from multiple sources. But I definitely have trouble in social situations (maybe mild), but the biggest struggle is with (forming) and, most of all, maintaining relationships. But my social skills have not been recently evaluated negatively in the work context, which would set me apart from other aspies.

Of course, aspie adults can achieve this as well; this does not mean I don't have it either. So, then the question becomes, what exactly is Asperger's?

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07 May 2013, 7:58 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

undercaffeinated wrote:

I recently came across a report that looked at WAIS-III results in older adults with Asperger's and HFA... to quote a section of the report:

Quote:

For me they had trouble at first figuring out if it was simply AS with decent acting skills, or a combination of my IQ, shyness, being a foreigner and conditions growing up - or both.

To separate it, they decided to do brain scans. A male brain will show significant deviation from normal if they have AS. A female brain will instead look almost exactly like a male brain, with a few minor deviations from that that if they have AS.

You seem unsure if you have AS at best - or you really *don't* want to have AS at worst. Either way an MRI will tell you one way or the other quite definitively.

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07 May 2013, 8:46 pm

Kjas wrote:

Tyri0n wrote:

undercaffeinated wrote:

I recently came across a report that looked at WAIS-III results in older adults with Asperger's and HFA... to quote a section of the report:

Quote:

I am a guy, so if I have AS, simply having decent acting skills is far more unlikely for me than it would be for a woman (as has been confirmed by clinical research showing that female aspies are far more likely to mask the symptoms successfully).

It's not that I don't want to have AS. Actually, some aspies wear AS as a badge of pride. Borderline Personality Disorder is stigmatizing and hated almost everywhere. If that was my reasoning, why on earth would I want to have BPD instead of AS?

The real reason is that Asperger's was a fundamental misunderstanding of my issues that looked only at some of the surface things but did not fully consider my past. As such, the treatment prescribed for AS was not only not helpful to me but harmful in some cases, which led me to successfully get an accurate re-evaluation.

I honestly don't care if I have AS at this point. I only cared when it posed an impediment to getting appropriately evaluated and treated, given the propensity of some professionals to try to explain everything away in terms of AS. I can't talk about my trauma very well, if at all, and my personal demeanor makes it somehow unbelievable, so the combination of direct and indirect (projection) tests and information from my friends and past girlfriends who still care about me was important and useful.

All that is no longer an issue. If I have mild AS, so be it. It probably does me more good than harm, if I do have it. At least I have special skills and talents that can contribute to the national economy whereas if I was an NT borderline like my brother (or, officially, untreated bipolar), maybe I would be homeless like him.

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07 May 2013, 9:17 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

Could you point to this clinical research? I've mostly found people claiming to be the case, but I haven't ever seen any research cited.

I also think that masking is not just due to how one behaves, but how behavior is interpreted by observers.

Anyway, you can't really look at yourself as a statistic. Men and women both can mask AS, even if more women than men are able to do it.

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