Can people with aspergers manipulative others?

Post Reply New Topic

Indeed, it is relatively rare on the autistic spectrum, because the skills required are one of the things that are very hard for people on the spectrum.

It does happen though, even among lower functioning individuals like "Bill" who is featured on the All about Autism podcast.

Being manipulative and deceitful is a part of a person's personality, and being autistic doesn't take that away - it may just mean they are not very good at it.

A bit about manipulation:
I was manipulated by my mother to the point, where I didn´t notice it. Our psychologist pointed it out to me.
At school it made me an easy target.
Later, when I began having a notion, when it happened, I would let the other have the benefit of the doubt (something I picked up from my father). In the years of the battles between my mother and me, I definitely learnt how to manipulate, but I never seemed to get away with it. (she was brighter, I suppose).
I don´t know to what extent, I might have done it, though.
Being manipulated that much, I developed a uncertaincy about myself: Had I thought, what I thought, that I thought? Had I done, what I thought I did, or was I deceptive, even to myself?
It took me years to gain back my certainty.
It was a heavy vaccine, so I try ever to be on my guard towards myself, as I do not want to be guilty of manipulation.
This is, of course a self deception as well.
I sometimes say very dramatic things to get my way.

There are reasons why we can manipulate, and why we do it. We must some times be able to influence the feelings of others to make them buy our proposal, our views, our projects etc. Even the most morally clean negotiation has an element of manipulation.
It is when the manipulation is being done for personal gain, -on the expence of others, that it gets ugly.

Last edited by Jensen on 26 May 2013, 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Some aspies work in advertising.
Aspies can be manipulative.
QED

All humans - even those perfect saintly people who don't exist - manipulate.

Some are better at it than others

To be good at it Theory of Mind is very useful - knowing how to make someone else think the way you want them to requires a certain understanding of how that person thinks in the first place.

People on the spectrum apparently lack ToM but actually they don't, they just have a delay in learning it which means that most people on the spectrum are very bad at manipulating because they are working with an under-developed ToM when NTs have that fully developed - apparently from birth (though actually from about 4 years).

ASC children tend to use difficult behaviour to manipulate - they learn that if they have a meltdown then someone is going to do something to get them to shut up, ie. give them what they want. This is something usually learned between 2-3 years old by most NT kids - it takes longer for ASC kids and then they don't grow out of it as quickly. Most kids then learn that outright tantrums don't actually always get them what they want - adults get wise to them pretty quickly - and then progress to learning more subtle ways to manipulate. ASC kids find this harder to learn and it is complicated by the fact that meltdown behaviour is not always deliberate as a tantrum is after about 3 years in an NT kid - most meltdowns are caused by being overwhelmed or frustrated with the world that is too intense and incomprehensible for them to cope with in which case the behaviour may look like manipulation but is often really a cry for help.

A lot of people on the spectrum find they can't compete on the manipulation playing field and basically give up on it - learning to be honest and straightforward in their approach to others - but some persist, just as some NT kids who find tantrums useful because the adults around them don't put their feet down hard enough persist in their brattish behaviours longer than others. And as ASC people learn ToM, even belately, that helps them develop the more subtle approaches just like an NT would - if your behaviour results in you getting what you want then you will persist in it and develop in that direction. As with any behaviours, the manipulation can become entrenched, or modified, or it will be abandoned in favour of other approaches. It depends on the person and on the environment they were raised in.

Manipulation is an important skill and one that is natural in all people - all people do what they need to to get what they want but as they develop they learn that manipulation also helps keep the peace, helps change people's attitudes, helps people cooperate..... it is not, in essence, a bad thing, it is only a problem when it is used persistently for selfish reasons and both NT and ASC people can become manipulative in this negative way.

I actually remember learning about lying at about 8 or 9 years old - when most kids are already well versed in it. My younger brother was an excellent liar from almost as soon as he could open his mouth but I didn't seem to be able to get away with it at all and I couldn't figure out why. Then one day my father said he could always tell when I was lying because I never looked him in the eye - a light went on - that's what I need to do to lie effectively. So I looked directly into his eyes every time I lied....and he still knew I was lying!! ! It didn't stop me trying but it did mean I wasn't very effective.
It took me years to understand that I needed to have a balanced and "natural" level of eye contact if I wanted to get away with telling a lie - but unlike most NT kids who know this almost instinctively from an early age, I was almost an adult before I was ready to learn that lesson because my ToM just wasn't well enough developed for me to understand the process. Now I have a pretty high level of ToM but I'm almost 50, lol!

You're just so great Fnord.

I believe my dad was on the spectrum, and he was always lying and manipulating people (or trying to). He really was dishonest, and I think with Aspies, the lack of empathy can contribute to being a skillful liar, because if you don't care what effect your lies have on others you can carry on with impunity.

The fact that I, as an Aspie, could spot him manipulating people, means it wasn't done artfully. Perhaps it was because I knew him well, spotted detail, or knew things about a situation he was talking about didn't happen that way (I have a long memory) but either way, I don't think he fooled most people with his manipulation attempts. By that, I mean people formed an opinion of him, they noticed what he was doing (and would comment to one another how he had the nerve and wasn't embarrassed, or laugh about it). he was overt (which I put down to his clumsy social skills and faux pas).

Tony Attwood does say that (I think he's talking about Aspie children here but the same would apply to adults) lack of empathy can make Aspies into liars, they will want to avoid negative consequences as much as any child.

As others have said, you still have your own personality as an Aspie, and there can also be co-morbids which give you other traits too. If you have had an abusive or difficult background, you may have honed your Aspie skills into uses that help you survive - this could include manipulation. If you are high-functioning, and possess all those skills which most Aspies have: eye for detail, analysis and often a good memory then these are attributes which could allow you to become a master manipulator by studying it kind of like a special interest and learning from experiences and remembering what to do.

That describes me. I was always lying to try and stay out of trouble because I didn't like being punished. Of course when I was told telling the truth gets you out of trouble, I still got into trouble so I lied still because honesty didn't keep you out of trouble. I took it literal. My mom should have said it gets you into less trouble and the consequence isn't as severe but that doesn't apply to when you commit crimes knowing as breaking the law like if you kill someone or break an entry in the home, assaulting someone.

May I have one? Or maybe a velociraptor, which is also an animal?


On topic: Being manipulative with underdeveloped social skills sounds very complicated. So...er...congratulations? No, really, I'd give a Klondike bar just for the power to manipulate normal folks into hearing what I'm really trying to say to them. Your magic impresses me.

Anybody can be manipulative, but it depends on the type of manipulation and the degree of it. During my teen years I would get frustrated and have meltdowns with my mother, but it usually didn't work so I quickly stopped, it took too much energy.

I'm going to make myself sound like a horrible person, but this is the truth with my ex and a few others (he didn't read anything about Asperger's either). In my twenties I noticed that people seemed to share all of their problems with me very quickly after meeting them, although I rarely make eye contact and I am very quiet at first. I guess it made them feel like I was a "safe" person to vent to, and so I allowed it. I never repeated it or questioned the way they felt...until I caught glaring discrepancies in their stories. I would wait and see if that person kept up the hypocrisy and allow them to add lie after lie, day after day. Then the moment comes where they are upset with me, usually over lack of emotions or seeming like a "robot" because I never really craved attention from them. They try to back me into a corner or try to yell and scream to bring me down. My ex in particular did the "look me in the eye when I'm talking to you!" screaming bit, directly in my face, and trying to use bravado to frighten me. Remember when Hannibal Lecter talked a fellow inmate into swallowing his own tongue just by using psychology and his life story to verbally rip him apart? That's exactly what I would do. I had been studying their behaviour for ages, listening intently while they thought I wasn't, and every lie and discrepancy came back at them within five minutes. If they had a nasty childhood, it came back at them too, I would make them mentally relive it until they left the room. This is a form of manipulation that I believe happens when someone is trying to decipher whether a person is honest after being around liars all of her life or whether they will back up one lie with another. It usually reduced a grown man to tears, and he wasn't the only ex I used it on when I thought I was being intimidated or lied to. A couple still claim that I am sociopathic ( I save baby turtles on the road, so no). However, I have also weeded out many fake people using this tactic. The monotone voice and lack of effect also means that I can easily lie, and have gotten away with it easily with anybody but my siblings, but lying for me is not natural and it is a last ditch resort.

I've also had three divorces, so I do not recommend this. Now, if I have a sexual partner, I do not want to know their life story, because I know what I will automatically do if intimidated and I know it isn't fair to many people. It's a break of trust to use that method, and they will not tell you anything else about them after the fact.

Our lack of social skills/ability to read people makes us less likely to be good at manipulation.
However, a few years ago I knew a guy who was diagnosed with AS, and he was one of the most scarily manipulative people I've ever met.

Pretty much that.

It's why you see "uses tantrums to get what he or she wants" in the literature when speaking of such. Ha, that's often about as advanced as it gets.

I can see a highly intelligent individual with AS who doesn't have many of the routine and sensory symptoms figuring out how to manipulate people well; it's cause and effect after all.

My manipulation skills consist of:

1. Actually remember to make eye contact.

2. Ask nicely.

3. Logic them into submission!

O, you terrible person you! That's terribly manipulative!

Similar here, though I skip your 1 and 3. I just ask. I kinda figure if someone says no, then they mean it.

That's kinda interesting, actually. If someone can be manipulated into doing something that they said no to or wouldn't actually do, wouldn't that mean that they're actually uncertain in their thoughts? I mean, a concluded mind technically shouldn't be swayed. Perhaps most people are more fluid than they think, rather than solid.

rigid thinking v. flexibility

A recognised difference between ASC and NT

Would deliberately holding an extra long grudge or refusing to let an adult try to cheer you up after a conflict of some sort count as manipulation? I'm pretty sure I did this even at a very young age, like 5 or so. It was like I would take pains to stay in a bad mood as long as I could just to make sure I was taken seriously. Would this mean I had working theory of mind? As a kid I can remember taking note of the fact that human children did this but pets didn't. A dog will grumble and snarl over you taking away a favorite toy but as soon as you have the toy it will go right back to happily begging for it. Little kids will take much more offense to that kind of "teasing" by an adult and will try to get back at the adult be being moody and/or uncooperative for a long time after as "punishment" for the mistreatment.

I think it's not that simple. Lack of empathy here can be a part of the cognitive disorder rather than ethical problem. E.g., I really have problems noticing and interpreting other people's emotions, but if they tell me straightforwardly that they are damaged by my behavior (or show it in another way, like crying, etc.), I can feel pretty miserable.

I don't know at what age exactly I learnt to lie, I think it was much later than what is considered "normal". I remember some well meaning people teach me to lie. E.g., my grandmother taught me to lie to my mother (who was really hard on me) about some small things like eating ice cream which I was not allowed to do I think I was about 10 then. But in fact, I'm not very good at lying even now. If they ask me directly looking me straight in the eyes, it's very hard for me to lie. Most likely, I would say something rude like "It's none of your busness" (which is equall to telling the truth ).

I think I can manipulate people sometimes... there's at least one person whom I can guilttrip.. but it's not my way, actually. I prefer convincing people by building up some flawless arguments. When preparing for a hard talk, I think of giving as much information as possible and improving the logic (not of the emotional buttons I could push).
(NB. The information can sometimes be slightly distorted, and the logic somewhat pervert, so... Manipulation? )