Expressing Doubts: First Scientific Refutal Of Asperger's

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I think the major pitfall of diagnosis in the ASD realm is the NT view of "right or wrong", "gay or straight", etc. People want to categorize things to nurture understanding because lack of understanding often creates fear. People tend to fear what they do not understand; some run and some dive in and move past the fear. I would be curious to know what percentage of diagnosis and research has been done by NT versus ASD scientists/clinicians. I have trouble explaining how I perceive the world; add to this a NT person trying to decipher what I mean through NT thinking and the message gets more blurry. What I am wondering is if the diagnosis as a whole is flawed because a cat is explaining how it feels to a dog and the only thing the dog hears is "meow".

Maybe it is all just misunderstanding? I don't think people are striving to have a "disorder" or "disability" but rather an understanding of themselves and the people around them. Call it syndrome, spectrum, disorder, or whatever else looks pleasing next to the checkbox; it is undeniably there. To the common person an autistic person can look like a mentally handicapped individual, a misbehaving child, "the devil", autistic, psychotic, rude, crazy, or none of those things or some of those things. People tend to label things as they perceive them and often these perceptions are rooted in personal belief.

I think some things are just beyond our current understanding; subtle differences in the brain can make all the difference in the world. Imagine meeting someone when they are broke and tired. Now, pretend you could erase that memory and meet them when they are well rested with a pocket full of money. Did you meet the same person? Was there any permanent physical differences in that person? Did they come in and out of their mood? My point is camouflage /= not there. I have become very good at "acting" normal, but internally there is a whole other world going on. For me to compare how I think, due to my wiring, to how the NT thinks seems nearly impossible; how can I ever know how someone else thinks?

You need evidence to believe things; I get that. Try this, look for overwhelming reasons NOT to believe things if you cannot find sufficient evidence TO believe it.

OK, I`ll bite.

It's good that you have an interest in this, HOWEVER...

I think your research methods are flawed. You have an idea, and you've gone out there and looked for stuff that backs it up in your own mind. I haven't seen a "hello" post from you, so I don't know if you are dx / self dx Aspie/Autistic or whatever.

Living with a constant buzz of terror and hyper-awareness isn't a personality trait, you know. Neither is finding certain frequencies of noise or types of touch or bright light, etc. personally offensive / painful. These are by-products arising from our neurological make-up.

The way in which your sensitivities and the other people around you during your development affect you in your formative years contributes to build your "personality" in terms of what others see. Some rare people are able to see beyond our "personalities" to the PERSON underneath (I'm hoping that the relative few of us here with incredible partners will back me up on this)

You need to start again, old son. Now, don't take this personally, but I was (quite) a bit of a dick at 21, because I was "young, dumb & full of come". I also thought I knew everything, by virtue of my "outsider" status, and a deluded belief that having a telephone number IQ was somehow important. Also, as a certified ageing bastard, I can tell you that at your age saying "I've been researching X for a decade" is going to do no more than raise eyebrows in at best, amused tolerance of your presumption.

*I* have been "researching" Autism "seriously" for about, well, since about 2 weeks prior to my first post on here, and while I applaud your statement that being gay isn't an illness, I'm afraid that's about the only thing you really have a point on. My "researches" have taken me further than youtube and my own delusions of intellectual adequacy.

So far the only conclusions I would "state" ( because lots of people on here will challenge any "claim" I might make without EVIDENCE [ahem?]) is that we are wired differently, and our neural chemistry is different.

Whether I see this as a mutation or an effect is as yet sub-judice, because once I feel I have made a connection and found something that "confirms" it, I then look for reasons to debunk my OPINION.

You have come to one conclusion and then sought confirmation of it, an approach that amongst black & white thinkers and people with greater capacity for objective analysis than yourself is going to raise nothing but scorn, and rightly so!

What you have come up with is comparable to a weekend on the internet combined with arrogance, rather than the apparent fruits of 10 years intellectual effort. I suggest you START by googling "how to conduct valid research" and then starting all over again. You see, personality can be changed, WHO you are can be adjusted, altered, tweaked, made over - WHAT you are is what you IS, capiche?

Now, I started this with the mindset that I wouldn't be condescending, and appear to have failed. Having read this back to myself, I find that I don't really care. So take this fatherly pat on the head, well done for having a go, and go do it properly before you come on here and insult people with 20+ years on you in age, experience and personal(ity) development, huh?

If you want to bat ideas around or whatever, you can PM me and I'll try and be fair and objective. If you want to come on here and spout your teenage certainties like facts, I can pretty well guarantee that you'll have (figuratively speaking) a new anus torn for you by some who are far less tolerant than I.

-EDIT- to correct a mis-spelling,

Many of us are Atheist. Many of us are Agnostic. Some are even Deist or Theist.

The status of one's belief and Autism are not specifically linked.

I'm excluding/combining some of your posts for the sake of shorter length in my response. On posts I've excluded, assume that I agree at least partially.

The fact that you joined Wrongplanet on the same date you posted this post, rather made me think "well here we have a guy who have experienced something so horrible (or just been to spoiled as a kid) that he now as a grown up who has to take care of himself is in so much need of attention that he he has a desire to leash out on someone else in seek of help and support, just to poor his dirt over at them.

- That's all you'r getting from me -


Oh, Good day's, good day's

Im not the one who wrote we r all atheists, maybe some of us, Im agnostic by myself...but believe religion (in good way) should be interpreted as in bocononism...

and regarding autism not being 'disorder' or whever u wanna call it, do we wanna become a 'culture' just as Deaf culture killing members who take cochlear implants... in extreme form...

If the intention of the post is to generate conversation, you have succeeded. If the intention is to sway others towards your inclination you have not.

You must first gain the respect of others for who you are as a person before they will ever listen to what you say. This will almost always determine the reaction you get, especially when bold statements are made. I want to assume that you made the assumption that you were logically displaying opinion and supporting it with fact, rather you created the assumption that you were trolling for an uproar by insinuating a diagnosis, that both bolsters and perplexes many, is not real; and supported it with opinions and inferences drawn from others and your own life.

You must know that presenting Autism as not real, in a time where awareness is attempting to trump confusion, can only lead to frustration.

I find it helpful to think of "disorder" in the same sense that I think of "illegal", "sin", and "disgusting". Let's use homosexuality as an example, because it's a good one.

Is homosexuality a mental disorder? Not in our culture. Was it fifty years ago? Yes, definitely.

Is homosexuality illegal? not in most places in our culture. Was it sixty years ago? Yes, definitely.

Is homosexuality disgusting? Not at this point in the majority of our culture. Was it thirty years ago? Yes, definitely.

Protip: no amount of arguing is going to get someone with a little pink triangle on their shirt out of a concentration camp in 1943 Germany. Not gonna happen. If you're homosexual, and you're in 1943 Germany, you are not a human being (unless you're in Hitler's inner circle, but hypocrisy is always a useful tool). At the same time, no amount of arguing is going to get the people in a gay pride parade in 2008 New Orleans rounded up and shoved in a concentration camp. Not gonna happen. If you're homosexual, and you're in 2008 New Orleans, you are a human being.

That's just how it goes.

It's the same with Asperger's. If society wants to say that you're flawed, guess what? It's bigger than you. Thus, you're flawed. If it wants to say that you're a wonderful testament to diversity, guess what? You're a wonderful testament to diversity.

Power does what it wants.

Touche, for your sincerity at least, you have gained +1 respect point.

I will cheerfully admit to implying that you are arrogant, however I didn't actually say that. Possibly this is due to personal bias regarding my own arrogance at your age, and wry observation of my 22 year old eldest and many other young men I come into contact with (oo-er missus!) in my work.

I am however going to return to one of my points, which is your approach.

I note your timeline, and that you appear to have `seriously` gotten into this at the kind of age when hormones and rebellion become high physical and mental priorities. Added to which your emotional involvement in your researches means that imho you are unlikely to have been completely objective - no shame in that, emotions are strong drivers. You have read my original response quite quickly and responded prior to reflection as indicated by your confusion on a couple of points of exactitude within my own comments.

With regard to "invaluable real life experience", dude, you're 21, and you're "outside the house less than 2 hours per month on average". Now, objectively, how much invaluable experience of "real life" is that going to give you? I got thrown out at 17, and I've been up, down, flush, poor and homeless. I've loved, laughed, cried, won, lost, and broken even. I'm not saying this to belittle you, but rather to lend you some perspective on how you're coming across. I've been abused for my differences and lauded for them, I'm an occasionally arrogant, often pedantic, socially awkward denizen of the Spectrum with my own problems and prejudices. My own real-life experience is subjective, as it's mine, no-one elses, and is going to be coloured by all that I was, all that I am and all that I was made. All of these things can have an effect on my "intellectual integrity" depending on the subject I am examining and /or discoursing upon.

My own visceral reaction to your OP and desire to take you down a peg notwithstanding, you have claimed that your refutation is scientific. To come HERE of all places and say that, without being able to demonstrate your research, none of which so far is clearly identifiable as having come from primary, secondary or tertiary sources strikes me as intellectual masochism!

Seriously, do you not see that overall this is an argument you cannot win on a scientific basis because this is your "belief"? You need to lay it out, quantify it, demonstrate it, cite your sources. All you have at present is a hypothesis, not a conclusion to present for peer review.

I applaud your efforts, sincerely, but I have to refer you to my original advice, google how to research. There are people here who can cheerfully eviscerate you out of hand if you persist in pushing this idea in this manner. The hardest thing about changing your mind when presented with a credible reason for doing so is overcoming your own emotional investment in your viewpoint at the outset, and that's the crux. You are emotionally invested in your subject, as are all of us.

You need to START AGAIN, and this time, record your findings, cite your sources, and examine your work objectively. Your mind may change, and there is no shame in that, either.

A few more posts have come up while I've been rambling on, and I take your point on the labelling. Neurodiversity has become a commodity to be monetised as long as certain criteria are met, but that's a subject for another post.......

- EDIT - missed out a couple of words *sigh*