Asperger's and SPD

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Hi all,

I am an adult who was diagnosed (unofficially) during his childhood with a condition known as semantic pragmatic disorder (I believe psychologists now refer to it as pragmatic language impairment). It is thought that this is an autistic spectrum disorder but it's not clear since although it has a lot of overlaps with high functioning autism - there seems to be a general disagreement within psychological communities. The main differences seem to be that there is more emphasis on language difficulties than social awareness. I have numerous issues which include auditory processing issues, namely discriminating between the most relevant information during a conversation, particularly group conversations as well as auditory tracking issues, which make it difficult to remember relevant details and therefore I have difficulties fully processing instructions. My interpretation of language is also very literal which makes it difficult to pick up on sarcasm and irony and I also have difficulties with reading, often reading faster than I can comprehend (hyperlexia). When I am reading at a rate I can comprehend it is very slow, at 70 wpm and I often have to take quite detailed notes of a text in order to fully understand it. Furthermore I have quite bad memory and concentration issues.

Overall these issues affect my everyday life, I have difficulties following quite basic conversations, I write essays and read books incredibly slowly, I am unable to follow quite simple conversations, especially in group settings and I also have a shockingly stinted general knowledge: I really don't know very much about current affairs and historical and geographical facts, this is in spite of a lot of reading I've done into politics and philosophy in the past in order to become more au fait with these subjects. Needless to say, this further effects my ability to converse with and develop a rapport with people. Most of my connections are shallow as a result and discussions with the few friends I have will be centred around incredibly mundane jokes or just simply, "Hi, how are you". Another everyday issue for me is a deeprooted sense of apathy that results from my misunderstanding and therefore lack of appreciation of experiences that ought to be very intellectually gratifying for me, such as visiting a fine art museum, or listening to a history documentary. A lot of my life is either extremely dull or else it is somewhat hedonistic and thrill seeking and I procastinate an awful lot because of it.

My confusion is how this condition is supposed to be significantly different from asperger's. I have been reading a book about sensory integration and the autistic child and the conclusion I have currently arrived at is that autism is a state of self-absorption that is the result of misinterpreting sensory information. I can see in myself that the social issues I have are the direct result of misinterpreting information, and surely this is what asperger's syndrome is in the first place. Overall, I don't have much experience with asperger's people, there were a few people in my life I might have suspected had asperger's but other than that all I have are the stereotypes that are typically portrayed by the media. These include hypersensitivity to certain sensations which I don't have, quirky or unusual behaviours in public like twitching or biting one's finger nails which I can have to a lesser degree although I am aware of their inappropriateness and try not to (it's more of an OCD thing with me), a complete dislike of most human interaction which I can't relate to and finally the objectiveness of the aspergic mind. By this I mean that people with Asperger's seem to be very preoccupied with facts and logic, they seem to know hundreds of random facts that I could not possibly memorise and are very quick to interject in conversations and point out inaccuracies, something that I would not personally do, or if I did, I would be aware of the inappropriacy.

I would recommend that you spend some time here on WP to better understand autism and identify the subtle differences between it and your own diagnosis. It appears to me that the assumptions that you have made from your reading so far are not quite right, specifically:

and


These statements are far from accurate.

Hi Alexi,

I am trying to be precise as possible, but obviously this is just a forum post.

First, that's not the definition I'd normally use of autism, I would normally refer to the Lorna Wing triad of impairments, I'm just referring to the fact that autistic children essentially act in socially inappropriate manners, or manners deemed socially 'inappropriate', due to a misinterpretation of sensory information (specifically verbal and non-verbal cues). There could be no other plausible explanation except perhaps a willful disregard of authority. Similarly, I misinterpret these cues due to a similar misinterpretation of sensory information so what are the subtle differences, precisely. Finally, I did mention that this was based on a media stereotype, without having had the opportunity to interact with asperger's syndrome on a daily life. I was wondering if people with asperger's might be less inclined to be social although they would still have the same innate desire for emotional connection that all humans have.

Best.

For clarification, and perhaps I didn't explain this very well, I realise that too often Asperger's symptoms do not fit the media stereotypes and this is why I am wondering if the two disabilities are really that different. For example, I was watching a Danish police drama called the Bridge. At the very beginning, a female police officer who demonstrates a lot of symptoms of Asperger's would not allow an ambulance with a triple by-pass patient to pass through a crime scene due to blind obedience of rules. She did not want to risk the evidence in the crime scene being damaged even though this was extremely unlikely to happen. This wasn't a trait I could relate to, but I was wondering if most people with Asperger's could personally relate to this either.

I've spent most of my life wondering whether or not I am on the high functioning end of the autistic spectrum, or if I am basically the same as a neurotypical individual but with a host of learning difficulties which manifest themselves as unusual or eccentric behaviour. This is either out of frustration (fully aware that I am out of sync with the norms of society despite efforts to adjust and reacting in a negative way to this manner) or features that would typically be ascribed to autistic individuals (absence of theory of mind, lack of awareness of social cues [due to sensory integration issues], etc.).

Your first post was far too long to read the entire thing, but I did catch that from the start your condition is not officially diagnosed.

Unless you later said that an official diagnosis was eventually obtained, then things are as they are.

I'd suggest you get yourself evaluated so that you can know with reasonable certainty where you are.

Then worry about if one condition or another falls within the range of the autistic spectrum.

You're sort of putting the cart before the horse. Friend, get yourself evaluated. You have the right to KNOW, not just suspect.

I talked about this with my mum, and she was always reluctant to get me fully diagnosed because apparently it's a very long procedure (takes a year?). I do feel like most of my life I've been labelled as this or that and at times wondered if a lot of my problems are psychological projections of that, i.e. I believe I act in this way, therefore I start to act in this way and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then there are times I just feel totally clueless and inadequate, despite my best attempts to fit in and it does seem like I have the problems I've been told I do.

I'm just going to go through everything you've said so far and respond to each bit, to clarify differences and respond to what you've said. This is going to be really, ridiculously long, so bear with me.

Books aren't exactly trustworthy sources. Unfortunately, there are a million and one theories regarding autism, and not all are created equal, but a book will generallly try to convince you that their theory is. Take this from someone who's read a lot of books about autism. They also do tend to focus on autistic children, who, shockingly, are children and therefore act differently than they will as adults. Most children are self-absorbed, but that's not a bad thing.

Maybe that's the conclusion of that particular book, mind you, but that's not true. There are a lot of theories about autism, and although, yes, many of the popular ones from the past decade have blamed self-absorption, etc ("they're in their own world!") those are under some serious questioning currently. In fact, there's a theory that states the exact opposite which is quite recent - they actually did a write up on it here. [ http://www.wrongplanet.net/article419.html ] The mere fact that the theory exists should make you question the theory you've developed. Personally, I don't know enough about it yet to judge it, but it meshes a whole lot better with what I know of my sister (who is highly empathetic, but also quite AS) than any of the Theory of Mind, self absorbed, etc theories that were out there previously.


So you have the interesting position of having a disorder named SPD. People with AS also tend to have something called SPD, but it's different - it's sensory processing disorder. When we're talking about senses here, we're not talking about interpreting body language (senses aren't the problem there), we're talking about sensory overload, normally. Here's an example of what sensory overload can look like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcS2VUoe12M

The problem socially, btw, doesn't tend to be misinterpreting, so much as not being able to interpret and then forming systems to use to interpret which aren't always correct. (Although people might disagree with my very broad characterization here.) So, for example, my sister (who has AS) knows that smiles mean someone is happy. But, if she meets someone who breaks that rule (for example, someone who smiles when they're angry, as has actually happened to her), she would apply her system to help her figure out what their body language means, and she'd be wrong. It's not her doing the misinterpreting, it's the system she's developed which normally helps, but isn't always accurate.

I hope that bit didn't confuse you too much or give you the wrong ideas. Please explain back to me your understanding of this when you reply, so I understand what you got out of it and if I successfully conveyed it or not.


Not a problem, but a heads up going forward for when you stay on this forum, the terminology includes people with Asperger's, Aspies, people with AS, people on the spectrum, etc - I've never heard the term Asperger's people. Terminology is covered at the bottom of this page: http://www.autismspectrumexplained.com/ ... round.html It tends to be pretty important because it can indicate affiliations to different perspectives regarding autism.

The media is probably more accurate than whatever books you're reading or are going to get a hold of, although the best way is to go online. There are websites that explain autism that I'd recommend you check out. My sister and I have one explaining autism that I would highly, highly recommend you read because it'll give you more the AS perspective of things than most books or websites. (Linked you to it already for the terminology, but here's the main page: http://www.autismspectrumexplained.com/ )


Said quirky or unusual behaviors are not actually because they're inappropriate or even because of the behaviors, but because they actually help calm one down - they're called stims. Everyone does it, no matter whether they have Asperger's or not - tapping your foot, drumming your fingers, tapping a pencil, etc are things that neurotypical people (people who don't have Asperger's or autism) do all the time. It's just that they're limited to small and socially appropriate ways, whereas those employed by people on the spectrum aren't always.

The whole 'complete dislike of most human interaction' is not true. I mean, I'm sure it's true for someone (people with Asperger's and autism do have individual traits and characteristics), but in general it's not true.


You've generalized a bit too much here. Moreover, there are some subtle flaws to what you said. For one, they don't tend to be random facts. They tend to be facts from areas of interest or passion. People on the spectrum tend to get really passionate about particular areas of interest - and they don't always just have one. So my sister could tell you a lot about certain areas - rights of certain minority groups, the country of Kyrgyzstan, the rhythm of the heart, etc - but there is a theme to the random facts she knows. It's not trying to memorize them, either, so much as something they're really passionate about. Neurotypical people have areas of passion, too - football, gardening, golfing, etc seem to be common areas - but it seems like to me Aspies' areas of interest are just deeper and more passionate than these.

Here ends part 1 of my reply. Because I'm afraid to lose the whole thing (my computer's weird) I'm going to post this half now and keep responding in a second half.

Last edited by BigSister on 24 Dec 2013, 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Again, I wouldn't classify verbal and non-verbal cues as sensory information. Sensory isn't the issue here, it's the ability to navigate and read social cues.


Erm, maybe? Aspies do tend to be introverts, although not all are (my sister's an extravert), so I suppose that would mean less inclined to be social, at least not as frequently and in the same ways as extraverts. Moreover, although Aspies do have the innate desire as you mentioned, they're less able to follow through with it, due to the misreading of social cues. I'd compare social interaction for someone with Asperger's as akin to navigating a minefield. You never know when you're going to miss some small social cue or fail to read a person's body language and have the whole thing blow up on you. And that's a really, really painful experience. So, yeah, some people are less inclined to be social after repeated negative experiences - but, again, doesn't have to do with innate desire.


Okay, watch the US version the The Bridge instead. I haven't watched it myself - it sounded a bit too scary/intense for me - but they have an Aspie on hand to make sure the portrayal is accurate (starting on episode 2), so that really should be a great portrayal.


Following rules is something most Aspies can relate to.


I have no idea - I don't think I have enough data about you to say either way. You might be an Aspie, I just don't have enough info to judge and either way my judgment wouldn't be as good as nor a substitute for that of a professional.


The first bit of this sentence did sound a bit more spectrum-y, yes. The theory of mind bit is under question, as I said earlier. Sensory integration issues, as I've said, aren't the things that make people on the spectrum miss cues. Even the rare people on the spectrum that don't have sensory problems still have trouble with social cues.

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.



I was wondering if the reason why autistic children can be considered in their own world (and the word 'autism' is in fact derived from the words 'autos', self and 'ismos', state, so state of self-absorption) would be precisely due to issues like sensory overload.



The issues with sensory integration I read about were due to issues with sensory information not being received by the neo-cortex (responsible for psycho-emotional and spiritual connections) because of a fight or flight fear response triggered in the amygdala (the lower brain). Until that fear is addressed, information cannot be accessed by the neo-cortex. I am wondering if this neurobiological condition is the result of the 'supercharged' brain that is discussed in the article, so then the two theories would not be so different. It's hard to say because I'm not an expert on this and I do misinterpret material I've read partially due to my disabilities.



Perhaps that is the reason they now call it pragmatic language impairment. I don't really have that kind of hyper-sensitivity towards sensations (although I can be extremely emotionally sensitive). Perhaps I have just learned to tune it out. One thing I do dislike touching though is foam but I would probably put up with it if need be.



I've learned to systemise a lot of my responses based on books on psychology and body language I've read (sometimes I think I enjoy analysing people and getting involved in the games people play a bit too much), so I know for a fact that these things aren't intuitive or natural for me. However I also feel that I've become quite adequate at reading situations, I often do just *feel* a negative vibe quite instinctively, but this may be the emotions I receive from a situation I've learned to correctly interpret. It's difficult to say and there are so many nuances and grey areas around this matter, times when I *think* I've read people down to a t and other times I don't feel so confident at all. I know that on the whole if I play things safe though, nobody will suspect anything is different about me at all which can be good or bad (bad if they are unaware that I am not necessarily coping as well as them beneath the façade). Then there are times I'm sure that I have been perceived as manipulative but that is not the case at all, I am just trying to cope with the pressures and demands of social expectations (which only get's tricky when you want to be more involved in interacting with other people, I find, as opposed to say, regular trips to the shop).



Ok, I guess I said that because aspies sounds too informal but 'people with Asperger's' is a bit of a mouthful. I don't know, as long as you know that nothing said is intended to cause offence (after all, I could easily have Asperger's myself).



Thanks, I'll give that a read through.



Yeah, stimming is what I was referring to. I have the urge to twitch my face and neck, scratch my head or neck and clear my throat a lot but try to keep it to a minimum, I don't know if other people notice, it's hard to say. No-one ever mentions it but then I probably wouldn't mention it. Sometimes I wonder if people are trying to subtly communicate these sorts of things but it's hard to say with 100% conviction, for example a girl I know was talking about her brother with Asperger's and the issues he has recognising boundaries and following social cues and I thought she might have been looking in my direction at one point but it's hard to say.



Yeah, I knew I was generalising when I said that. I was just wondering if it was more applicable to people with Asperger's than myself.



Well, this could explain why I'm generally unable to keep up with a lot of conversations because I do find a lot of those things that most other people find interesting somewhat mundane. But I try to relate on the same level, because I know it is pompous to talk about my interests, or things that I think are more 'important'. Besides, I seem to have a very superficial knowledge of the subjects I'm interested in, like politics and philosophy as in, I can throw around a few big words and generalising comments (like I am doing in this discussion) but I always seem to get my facts wrong and just dive in at things from pretty random, illogical tangents. So it means that if I find someone who is interested in discussing these things, it's still not much use for me unless they're equally pretentious and dim-witted as me in which case I find I start finding things in the other person that I already criticise in myself.

One thing I will say is that before I go on a spiel about the things I find interesting, I try to gage the other person's interests by introducing a topic and then seeing if they ask questions. It seems natural for me to do this even if the conversation becomes a bit disjointed. I was talking about free range farming and how Happy Eggs play the legal system so they can call their product free range (something that I gradually introduced). One girl who wasn't interested in that thought she was being really clever by suddenly talking about how she likes looking at chickens in farms or something (a more socially appropriate topic) but all she did was bring the conversation to an abrupt silence.

Part two will come later, since my computer messed up and I lost the message...

AJH, I found your opening post very well written and interesting and would like to discuss it further. I sent you a PM as I am not sure how well my response fits in with the general flow of this thread.

I really don't think it's significantly different from Asperger's. It's more of a different angle on the same phenomenon.

If Asperger's were an extremely well-defined condition, with all cases being very similar to each other, SPD might be a different thing; but it's not. Asperger's expresses itself in many different ways, within the bounds of repetitive/restricted behavior and communication impairment, and one of those ways looks like the definition of SPD.

I think what happened is that people with a neurological viewpoint were looking at Aspies and thought "Nonverbal learning disorder", and people with a speech pathology viewpoint were looking at Aspies and thought "Semantic-pragmatic disorder". Descriptions of, and treatments for, both are quite useful and applicable to Aspies in general.