Theory of Mind and The Gruffalo

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One of the criticisms of standard Theory of Mind tests, particularly those looking at higher order Theory of Mind is that the language is complex and therefore people with autism, who find processing complex language difficult, are more likely to fail.

I was reading my daughter The Gruffalo the other day and realised that this story is an excellent example of the application of Theory of Mind.

So I was wondering. Do people with Autism have difficulty understanding The Gruffalo?

Below is a copy of the text of the story.



A mouse took a stroll through the deep dark wood.
A fox saw the mouse, and the mouse looked good.

"Where are you going to, little brown mouse?
Come and have lunch in my underground house."

"It's terribly kind of you, Fox, but no ?
I'm going to have lunch with a gruffalo."

"A gruffalo? What's a gruffalo?"
"A gruffalo! Why, didn't you know?

He has terrible tusks, and terrible claws,
And terrible teeth in his terrible jaws."

"Where are you meeting him?"
"Here, by these rocks,
And his favourite food is roasted fox."

"Roasted fox! I'm off!" Fox said.
"Goodbye, little mouse," and away he sped.

"Silly old Fox! Doesn't he know,
There's no such thing as a gruffalo?"

On went the mouse through the deep dark wood.
An owl saw the mouse, and the mouse looked good.

"Where are you going to, little brown mouse?
Come and have tea in my treetop house."

"It's terribly kind of you, Owl, but no ?
I'm going to have tea with a gruffalo."

"A gruffalo? What's a gruffalo?"
"A gruffalo! Why, didn't you know?

He has knobbly knees, and turned-out toes,
And a poisonous wart at the end of his nose."

"Where are you meeting him?"
"Here, by this stream,
And his favourite food is owl ice cream."

"Owl ice cream! Toowhit toowhoo!"
"Goodbye, little mouse," and away Owl flew.

"Silly old Owl! Doesn't he know,
There's no such thing as a gruffalo?"

On went the mouse through the deep dark wood.
A snake saw the mouse, and the mouse looked good.

"Where are you going to, little brown mouse?
Come for a feast in my logpile house."

"It's terribly kind of you, Snake, but no ?
I'm having a feast with a gruffalo."

"A gruffalo? What's a gruffalo?"
"A gruffalo! Why, didn't you know?

His eyes are orange, his tongue is black,
He has purple prickles all over his back."

"Where are you meeting him?"
"Here, by this lake,
And his favourite food is scrambled snake."

"Scrambled snake! It's time I hid!"
"Goodbye, little mouse," and away Snake slid.

"Silly old Snake! Doesn't he know,
There's no such thing as a gruffal...?"

...OH!"

But who is this creature with terrible claws
And terrible teeth in his terrible jaws?
He has knobbly knees, and turned-out toes,
And a poisonous wart at the end of his nose.
His eyes are orange, his tongue is black,
He has purple prickles all over his back.

"Oh help! Oh no!
It's a gruffalo!"

"My favourite food!" the Gruffalo said.
"You'll taste good on a slice of bread!"

"Good?" said the mouse. "Don't call me good!
I'm the scariest creature in this wood.
Just walk behind me and soon you'll see,
Everyone is afraid of me."

"All right," said the Gruffalo, bursting with laughter.
"You go ahead and I'll follow after."

They walked and walked till the Gruffalo said,
"I hear a hiss in the leaves ahead."

"It's Snake," said the mouse. "Why, Snake, hello!"
Snake took one look at the Gruffalo.
"Oh crumbs!" he said, "Goodbye, little mouse!"
And off he slid to his logpile house.

"You see?" said the mouse. "I told you so."
"Amazing!" said the Gruffalo.

They walked some more till the Gruffalo said,
"I hear a hoot in the trees ahead."

"It's Owl," said the mouse. "Why, Owl, hello!"
Owl took one look at the Gruffalo.
"Oh dear!" he said, "Goodbye, little mouse!"
And off he flew to his treetop house.

"You see?" said the mouse. "I told you so."
"Astounding!" said the Gruffalo.

They walked some more till the Gruffalo said,
"I can hear feet on the path ahead."

"It's Fox," said the mouse. "Why, Fox, hello!"
Fox took one look at the Gruffalo.
"Oh help!" he said, "Goodbye, little mouse!"
And off he ran to his underground house.

"Well, Gruffalo," said the mouse. "You see?
Everyone is afraid of me!
But now my tummy's beginning to rumble.
My favourite food is ? gruffalo crumble!"

"Gruffalo crumble!" the Gruffalo said,
And quick as the wind he turned and fled.

All was quiet in the deep dark wood.
The mouse found a nut and the nut was good.


Questions-
Are the Fox, Owl and Snake afraid of the mouse?
Why is the Gruffalo scared of the mouse?

I wouldn't have spontaneously understood as a kid.
Current thinking in social cognition is not about understanding or not understanding things like this in an explicit test, but spontaneously processing other peoples signals in social context especially during interaction.
I wouldn't have known that there was anything social or emotional to get in this story, when I lacked social cognition as a kid.

am rigid and extremely literal thinking so cannot understand fakery/fiction in any form though do watch some fictional shows for other benefits like sensory seeking or following routine.

upon seeing that writing;am sat here confused, thinking animals cannot talk human languages so why are they being manipulated in this way here-cannot get mind around that concept to make a judgement on the language.

Some fiction writers, especially children's writers, give animals human characteristics such as speech because young children are often not such logical thinkers that they question talking animals. Another reason may be that people, both young and old, seem to like the idea that animals could have thought processes similar to humans which makes them more prone to liking said animals if they can relate to them somehow even if that way does not make sense.

I like the story for three reasons: it rhymes, the gruffalo is real (just in the story), and the mouse wins despite being the obvious underdog.

I probably wouldn't have been able to follow the story when I was a child.

A good fable.
Up to a certain age, I would have needed some explanation, but I would have enjoyed it because of the rhyme and the rythm.

I am able to understand the text by applying the following 3 concepts.

1) Prey are afraid of predators.
2) Correlation is not causation. (Just because the mouse is on the scene each time and the animals run away does not mean the animals are afraid of the mouse.)
3) People are often prone to make logical errors about 2). (The gruffalo makes this error).

As an adult I am familiar with all 3 concepts and am able to match them to the text quite easily. However, concepts 2) and 3) are quite sophisticated and I wouldn't expect them to be developed until the teenage years.

For that reason, I am with the other posters in believing that I wouldn't have understood this as a child.

I wonder if there is an alternative way of understanding this story: by putting yourself in the shoes of the fox, the mouse and the gruffalo. This would explain how young children are able to understand it.
I do not think like way at all. I understand the story by matching the language of the story to abstract concepts in my mind.

I think I would have found the little mouse unlikeable. I have always been distrustful of conniving people probably because of a history of bullying/ kids taking advangate of my naivete. HeH.

At first, even know, when asked about the story my mind tries to play everything back like a movie and I get confused.

Then I think my thought process would have been: Afraid when? At this moment? After the story has ended? No? Within the story? At which point in time? Then although I probably would have recognized that each respective predator had been scared away by the mouse's trickery at one point, the question still would have befuddled me. "Yes, because the mouse tricked them" would have been very hard to get out of me.

I keep thinking about the question and almost getting a headache and wondering what's wrong with it? As in why is it hard for me to get?




Actually, after reading this one I would have guessed that it means the correct answer to the first is "yes". I would have gotten the first one without crying. But then for some reason, relaying the gruffalo's thoughts to someone would have been beyond me. "Because he thinks this and this" would have been difficult to articulate. I would have probably tried to recount the sequence of events that led to him being scared instead.

To me, for some reason "the gruffalo is scared of the mouse" rings false. The gruffalo, at one point in the story becomes scared of the mouse. And there is a distinct difference between those two things. The sentence itself is hard for me to grasp.

Making sense of a whole is hard and also making something into a coherent whole is hard. But I don't feel like I inherently don't get people. Or inherently don't connect to other humans. I have trouble understanding what the hell they're saying but only because of the direction my mind takes at their words, like in this instance. Not because I'm missing a social chip or something like that, I don't feel like that at all.

I probably would have gotten it after a couple repeated readings....I loved being read to as a kid, regardless of whether I understood the story or not. It's a cute story...I actually have an e-friend in the UK who loves that book.

Some really interesting comments.

thirteenboats - Interesting that you think you would find the mouse unlikeable because of his deviousness. Most NT kids would identify with the mouse for using his wits to overcome other physically stronger creatures.

Foxfield - Your application of logic to help understand the narrative is excellent but you are right, this is something that would normally happen later in life.

Obviously one of the key attractions of the actual book are the illustrations. This also makes it much easier to explain to children what is going on as you can use the illustrations as guidance and don't just need to rely on their understanding of the language.

I am still trying to understand Theory Of Mind vs Buffalo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_bu ... lo_buffalo

No matter how many times I go through it, I still don't 'get it'.

Ive read this book lots over the years to my children and Ive never liked it and not understood why other parents are so crazy about it, there are toys, shows, pens, outfits. I love julia donaldson and axel schefler but much prefer their other books,

I think the mouse is conniving and unlikeable too, but I dont like the gruffalos warty knees and spikes amongst his fur. My children never commented on not understanding the story but none of them really liked it either so that might be because its harder for asd minds. I like the gruffalos child story much better.

I never read this story as a child and I have no trouble with it as an adult.

However I do strongly dislike the deceitful little mouse and really don't think a story which implies that lying is clever and admirable is an appropriate lesson for children. While I understand the mouse needed to protect himself, I'm sure there are better ways he could have used his wits without being deceptive and cocky. What an unpleasant character!

I would have got it as a child.

And I liked the mouse.

Haha, in fact it's not a long time ago that I have seen the story as a cartoon. (Yes, I am childish, I know. )

I liked the story and found it funny. And those animals are really stupid. They may have teeth, claws, poison or whatnot, but the (physically weaker) mouse wins over them with his intellect.

I got the point and guess I would also have got it as a kid.
The other animals are not afraid of the mouse, but of the Gruffalo who walks behind him.
And who is just as gullible as the others.
And the mouse knows how stupid and easy to fool the other animals are and takes advantage of it.

Yes, I would have understood it, and liked the little underdog mouse who uses his cleverness.