First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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Thanks - I assume neurotypical means (forgive the expression) 'normal' as in not having ASD?

i think NT strictly only refers to 'not diagnosed to be on the autistic spectrum'.

however, sometimes NT seems to be used more generally as 'not being diagnosed with any neurodevelopmental disorder', which would include conditions like dyslexia (developmental reading disorder), developmental coordination disorders, ADD (psychiatric neurodevelopmental disorder), and similar conditions

even as an NT, i prefer 'typical' to 'normal', since i think aspies are 'special' rather than 'abnormal' - that's certainly how i think of my aspie partner!

Brilliant - thank you. I've obviously got a lot to learn as an Aspie and am lucky to have a very tolerant, long suffering and understanding wife. I've got my first meeting tomorrow with my psychiatrist since being diagnosed by the psychologist. I'm feeling quite anxious about it to be honest as unsure what will happen after years of being treated solely for underlying mental health conditions. I think there'll be a period of separating out the MH from the Aspies.

Within the Aspie/autism community "NT" does generally refer to non-autistic people, however in the field of psychology (at least in America), NT can refer to anyone not diagnosed with a learning/development disorder.

I don't think there are easy answers to this or the other questions. For me it's more of a shutdown when i'm overwhelmed by something, which can be brief (few minutes) or if it's really bad, up to a few hours. Part of my shutdown is my mind is constantly playing over things to analyze it and try and develop mental mechanisms to cope with that and similar situations. If it's someone pushing the wrong buttons it's been long ago I built up mental walls that make it very hard to get to me emotionally until I open up to someone.



again i don't think there's an easy answer. I think you already started on a path towards more control over it. I find with pacing, being zone out in thoughts, or even obsessing verbally to someone about something, I have a far easier time snapping myself out of it when I notice it myself than someone else pointing it out to me. In the past I even gone as far as withdrawing from a situation until I was able to snap myself out of it.



Though i'm far more of an AS than an NT I can speculate on this somewhat out of my own experience.

As an older AS, I have always been extremely observant of whats going on. It used to take me hours to weeks of observation to relate to someone properly or a group, but now it's only minutes to hours in most cases. I have interacted on the net with so many aspy's, bi-polars, those dealing with ptsd among other things that I can spot someone out of the crows who's within the spectrum fairly easily. Now, if it's someone I got to know for a while the thing that is most likely to hold me back is through experience not everyone takes kindly to being labeled or of being noticed of being within the spectrum.

As for NT's I can only speculate. I think a part of it is going to be very similar why many NT's won't just come out and say many things. (this is hard i know what i want to say/type but can't get it out right).
lets try saying it this way. There are many things NT's, and even some AS' do, Like, saying they are busy and in the middle of something if asked to visit to help with something, or other excuses for things they don't want to be outright blunt with. To most NT's (the one's who don't want to offend) won't just come out and say it.

For most AS', the behavior is almost always learned and mimicked because even though it doesn't feel natural for us, many of us understand an outright approach can be very upsetting to NT's if they are falsely suspected, or to an AS who may be very sensitive over it.



I don't think there is an absolute border between NT/AS/etc. but I think it's more a question of how your mind works through things, and relating to similarities of how our difficulties manifest other conditions (such as depression, OCD, etc)

Hello everyone, as an older AS who can function mostly normal: I figure i'd post a couple questions that may help individuals relate to one another better.

Question to the NT's
You are here on a forum that is about those of us who are in the Autism spectrum. My question is what brought on your awareness of those who fall within the autism spectrum, and what brought you to wanting to understand those of us within the spectrum better?

Questions to other AS'
1) During your grade school years (K-5 in most cases), what would be the best way for someone to approach you as a friend?
2) During your High School years (grades 10-12 usually) what would be the best way for...
A) another within the spectrum to approach you for friendship
B) an NT who isn't within the spectrum to approach you for friendship
3) As an adult (about 21-25) to be approached by another AS and an NT for friendship?
4) as an older adult (40+) to be approached by another AS, and an NT for friendship?


And to be fair i'll even answer my AS question

1) I'd be easy to approach as a friend. If someone wanted to play with me i'd play with them though with some awkwardness. At that age neither myself or my peers were aware enough at social differences. I normally would be alone unless approached, and I was the passively annoying type of kid so I was more often singled out for physical bullying.

2) though my family moved a couple times since elementary school, so i was an impossible shell for any NT sort to get me to open up to them, as for other AS', since every AS' have different quarks, and since it was at a time very little was understood of those within the spectrum, I found other AS' also awkward to be around. My social comfort zone in those years were adults or those 5-10 years younger. (adults have more patience, and those who were 5-10 years younger were closer to my social maturity at the time)

3) At this point in my life I was open to anyone who was willing to take the time to understand and get to know me better. I still didn't know anything about the actual autism spectrum, but was aware enough to realize the ADD label i got while in school didn't quite fit what I was.

4) It was in my early 30's that I learned about Aspergers, and the spectrum. Around 35/36 I was going to a psychiatrist who also diagnosed me with aspergers. way the area was there was no real "test" other than fitting the criteria for a diagnosis. As for meeting new friends, which hasn't happened in a long long time, i'd be receptive to someone wanting to know and understand me, but I have put up a different sort of wall. To get through this new wall you'd have to earn my respect as a friend who isn't just a friend as long as there is something to be gained other than spending time with me. (in my 20's a lot of friends sorta came and left cause they only were interested in a friend they could use and gain from without giving much back)

i trust you can say who is an aspie. so,i am not one,cos i hardly have no expression on my face and in my voice.
but i hardly know how to behave in nt society. no social graces. i have to think of them and logically decide what to do or say and what not. this is hard but for me the only way to communicate with nts.
so,if i am not a classic aspie,what am i?
i thought and thought it over and kinda decided i understand the social ques nts sent around.
only,i don't like sending ques instead of saying it openly. not necessarilly i public,but to the person involved. but no they prefer to be mystical about it. hm. why on earth. truth should be said openly,in my logical opinion.
in other cases i disregard the social ques nts send around and thus to me too,not because i prefer open speech instead of mysterious ques,but because the matter is so urgent and/or important to me that i just must disregard the que the nt is sending to me or around.
this,cos i am usually an exception in my social environment,living in a foreigner country,being an atheist,feminist,very poor money-wise,while i have no access to people who i resemble to.
does anyone aspie or not feel the way i do about social ques? thanks for any input.

For some reason I put my response in the quotes. In response to WaYa:

I am NT and I am here because my son has autism. He is 21 months old, and I want to understand him better and get a feel for how to best help him. I have some autistic features myself, so its quite helpful in understanding people with AS.

To both NTs and AS

From an AS female: I struggle with the same stuff socially that every other AS person does and I've tried to get my boss to realise giving me feedback which is imprecise is counterproductive as I can't act on it and consequently can't promise not to repeat the behaviour. The problem is that most people don't know I'm on the spectrum as I've spent a lot of time studying communication (voice modulation and language use) and eye contact. I still hate being hugged but have forced myself to do this and try to keep my muscle tone relaxed and I've spent hours working on having the right type of handshake.

My questions are how do I get my boss to realise exactly how distressing his approach is because I'm good at what I do I'm just not great with relationships even collegial. I tried being open about my status with him and had no change in approach.

I also did the same with my now ex fiancé who decided to dump me after a massive meltdown the worse in 15 years induced by all that new relationship stuff.

I 'pass' so people think I'm just being difficult which couldn't be further from it. I try my best to predict responses and for the most part with known/planned discussions I do ok its the impromptu stuff that trips me up and neither my ex or my boss seem to get this is not a way to get me to be co-operative or welcoming. to feedback (it makes me go hot and really mad).

My girlfriend is asper and i think she's special too, she definitly is! she was bullied when she was a child but she was always and still is a very happy person that just wants to have fun and to get along with everyone . unfortunately being an asper people dont always realize the true meaning of some things nor she understands their intentions, luckily she had some pretty good advice from her mother that one time said " if someone hurts you, hurt them too " and so she did! the school called many times her mother but guess what? she wouldnt care so much because she knew that her daughter needed to be like that, and so she was and like that she started to be a tomboy at her childhood and get guy friends that still has nowadays! they still dont know about her being asper condition but they like her and accept her just the way she is. She's very outgoing person unlike most of the aspers, thats a very good quality in her but a little pain in the ass for me a a boyfriend because sometimes she doesnt know how to behave with people she doesnt know well and have trusts she shouldnt have and they may get the wrong idea but guess what ? im strong too and we can always solve our problems , we always did . Im 20 she's turning 19 this month, we've had some rough times like any couple, especialy at this age I'm a very straightforward person, honest , direct, if i have something to tell i just tell, i think that helps alot in this case. Im a very emotional person too and thats a hard thing but we can always fix it. she's great, she's perfect and i want to keep her and make her happy.
we are togheter for almost 2years and half now =D

4am just felt like sharing something !

How about and aspie parent of an aspie?

I'm going to be a bit more stern, because I've been there on your side... and I'm going to have to be on the other side. I have the "advantage" of hindsite, but I still can't make an NT believe something they don't understand.



Holy crap. It gets better. It doesn't go away... but it does get better. Using the "school world" as an analog of "adult world" is bordering on laughable... only ALL of us have been where you are at.


You know how it sucks when people decide how you are going to behave, or apply their limited understanding of your world to make judgements about you? It sucks.
Don't do it to them either.
People might bail, but they get to make that call. If you understand NTs well enough to say what they might do, you're already doing better than most of us... but I suspect they are as much a mystery to you as they are to me, and as much as it sucks, that means you have to let them make their decisions before you react to them.



I don't know your mom... but I am a parent, and have parents... and I've known a LOT of NTs along the way who were well meaning (and utterly intolerable).

Here is the deal... this is the most NT thing I have ever had to admit, but Parenthood changes you in completely unexpected and absolutely non-quantifiable ways. Your mom is very likely just as absolutely driven to see you socially successful as you are to be a hermit. She doesn't misunderstand you, she doesn't even necessarily "not get" that you are content... but she can not stop pushing you to achieve... she is your mom. It isn't "her job" so much as it is her imperative.



It is disgusting, but it is also very pedestrian: Your mother is your mother, and most people less understanding of you than your mom is. There is an expectation that she would imbue you with the acceptance of the social standards and behaviours of the community you are in at the moment. Wouldn't matter if you were AS, gay, or really REALLY liked bow ties. This is a thing people do.
A tiny part of it is respect, if a soldier misbehaves you address his captain. Traditionally we address the parent out of politeness... but that gets less reasonable when you're older than about 12...
It is worse for Aspies because people have trouble engaging us, our eye contact is spotty, and we aren't responding to whatever body language they are putting out, so they redirect to the person they know how to communicate with: your mom.

----------------------

Maybe that answered some questions, but I really started writing because I wanted to address you, and not your mom.

Think about yourself and your mom. Think about something you do, or something you appreciate, that you picked up from her indirectly that you wouldn't have gotten from somewhere else, and something she didn't tell you to mimic. I have a love/hate relationship with my sarcasm, but that is ALL my mom, and it is an interesting part of me that exists because of her, and even when I think I shouldn't be so sarcastic, it makes me happy that I have this piece of her ingrained into me.

Now extend that, if you can (it gets easier as you get older) to things she taught you, whether you wanted to learn them or not, things you find useful or even critical to every day life.

Now here is the brutal one. Think about something your mom was absolutely correct about in some weird NT voodoo way, that made absolutely no sense to you (or worse, something you actively argued). Wisdom on your parents sucks. You don't want to notice it, but you KNOW they know stuff about stuff you haven't experienced. You know they have felt just as deeply or passionately about things as you do, even though it doesn't seem possible, and the idea is occasionally off putting to even think about.

On this one, your mom knows some stuff that you are most likely never going to know. Again, that isn't an insult, I'm right there with you, NTs just have an advantage in social interaction that we never will.

Also... she was almost certainly akward once... that is by no means exclusive to our club. ( We do it better. )

Don't resist JUST because she is your mom. Consider her a mobile encyclopedia of social interactions that you will have to return to the library eventually. You open the book, read the page and close the book. You don't have to tell the book you think it is completely unreasonable and that it doesn't understand you. Just listen, think about it, and try to understand more than you try to explain.

Those bits of mom wisdom are like anything else she has tried to impart to you. And for an NT, that has to be maddening when it falls on our deaf ears. They can't function without that heavy social bonding stuff that freaks us out. She is worried. From her perspective this is the same as you not eating enough. Try to keep her perspective in mind.

THAT SAID...

Hiding is weak sauce... and a bad bad bad idea...

I don't mean to be holier than thou or anything... I hide reflexively from all of this same stuff... but that doesn't change the fact that hiding from the world is the option we take if we don't have any others, or, periodically, when our other choices have already exhausted us. You can't allow yourself to get up in the morning with the intent of hiding.

I hate that this is true... HATE... because I would like to live in a small room and be completely left alone... about 98% of the time.

...and then that 2% comes along and makes life just completely miserable... if left un-sated, it will pour out into your awesome 98% you time and poison it.

Years go by and you finally gut up and stumble into the blinding light of society, and you will be demolished by it, because you don't remember HOW to do it. You're out of shape and just being NEAR people being social is exhausting. You eventually reach that age where people are "done" making new friends (which is a thing, apparently)... and you've left yours so far behind you can't engage them anymore.

Then that 2% eats your 98% altogether.

Here is the deal. You have to push yourself. Not a homeworky sort of OCD grind or anything, but you have to get out of your space and into social space regularly. MORE often than you like... not to much, but like any healthy workout... if you do what you're comfortable doing, you'll never get stronger.

...and it atrophies SO FAST. In a year or two you can go from "competently faking it" (which is all the better I ever did) to "omg peeples is too hard, screw this I'm going home"...

...just do it, not for her, not for you in the moment... do it for you in 5 or 10 years. Just stay connected.

Also... sometimes just do stuff for your mom cause she is your mom, and she has to put up with stupid people on your behalf. Throw her a bone.

Before I didnt, I found mild aspies and less mild aspies just a little bit strange to a little bit more strange. I had not that much trouble with those that accepted their own particularities, found them more interesting/intriguing than NTs, but although I spend more time together with some of them, no real friendship developed at that time. There has been always a certain distance. Some of them seem to have had some kind of special attitude towards me, as if they expected me to get their nature or individuality and accept it. Which probably I did to a certain degree. But I had always felt a little put off by their bizarreness.

Now I would recognize mild aspies pretty quickly, or at least become suspicious, when there is an inappropriate, mostly verbal response which comes sooner or later. I don t see any physical signs in them, though, like I often do in the not so mild forms.

The subtleties of language are mostly not for making your life more complicated but for expressing ourselves fully. Only nasty people with inferiority complex are using them for denigrating others. Most of us are hyperbolic, because we get it nevertheless, or express an additional idea that you might not get, or use idiomatic language which means pretty much the same as the literal meaning, but has an additional associative meaning, and many difference come nor or less from language itself, but also or mostly from the context like that between a harsh demand and a pressing demand. Then there is more than enough clearness for an NT to hold on, so we dont need to be that precise, but let the other guess. My ex-husband for example knows that I am good at sorting out even his more cryptic messages, and therefore does not even bother to express himself properly in a language that is not his mother tongue. Then NTs can also be very egocentric and assume not only that that they have 100% of your attention for all their utterances but also that you share their concerns fully. And some people simply are bad at expressing themselves or talk in order to sort out somehting they are I got aware of the full extent of this when trying to translate some articles, so a good deal remains unclear also for NTs. To express ourself always in an aspie-friendly way would take us away 50% of our expressiveness, and that is simply too big a demand.

I think even before knowing anything about autism spectrum I would have automatically stopped using ironic language with certain people who didnt recognize it well. My one very Aspie friend is always trying to make me express myself in a very direct and unequivocal way, and most of the time it works well, but when she is bothered by something, she tends to blame me for expressing myself incorrectly, although she sometimes even knows what I wanted to say or could have expected that it might be rather for her inattention than for mine.

I understand that you find your context-blindness (because that is what it mostly is) scary, but you should mainly be scared about your possible lack of judgement of people than of anything else. Words are not everything and some aspies seem to be more capable of both: to preserve their openness for people and to develop a more subtle judgement about others, they also get better the ambiance as a whole, and maybe that is well worth the lack of understanding verbal communication fully. That aspie friend of mine is making observations that I would hardly hear from any NT, and that I find most intriguing. I feel like as the way aspies perceive the world runs off on me and that this is a good thing. Very good even: it offers previously unseen possibilities to develop some underdeveloped powers of cognition of mine. Maybe it helps if you see your communication efforts also as an opportunity for others.

In general I would say that it is easier for Aspies and NTs to get tuned to one another if it is only the two of them, or the right bunch of people. Even with a less Aspie friend of mine for example, I always feel like as if I had to cover his strangeness when we are with others (although I am committed to stopping that), while everything is easy if it is only the two of us or if we are with friends who know him well or are similar to him.

No, like Aspergers too, we sometimes just talk to sort out things for ourselves (for me as a women for example shopping issues) or because we are nervous. Many people also talk because they cant stand silence, I can unless I see that it makes feel the other uncomfortable.

But most of the time our talking has a purpose, and even more than one. Making the other feel comfortable is mostly part of it, and then there is a constant and big interest in other people, their background, the reasons why they react how they react, the differences in people, what hinders us from being happy.

I guess some aspergers find nature or an object very intriguing for the sake of it, but for me anything is meaningless, unless it relates to people.

I think it is a good idea to say that you have Aspergers (c. my post on the NT/AS hotline "noticing even the mildest of aspies?").

As for the way how to tell it, I d like to ask back how you have done it so far. (so that I have a chance to find out part of what is wrong with it, or missing.) From what you say I would suspect that the positive side and the grotesque were missing, and that it was not personalized enough.

There is not much general advise to give, unless you want something like this:
The suggestion to say it indirectly (T-Shirt, Big Bang Theory) is not bad, although saying it directly can be good too. You can say it in a casual way when a typical nerd subject you are interested or not interested in comes up like computer games, mangas, SF, fantasy, etc. (" I might appear quite nerdy, I even have Aspergers, but XY is not one of my special interests".) But I doubt that you as an aspie will manage the casual way very well. In some cases, it might be better to make a real coming out. In any case I would rather try to say it when other people are there, unless ...
But I doubt that this is much of a help.

Here is the general advice I can give.

Something like: "it depends much on how much and what kind of prior knowledge and sensitivity to the AS issue she might already have" wont help much, because that is exactly what an Aspie is bad at guessing. Still it might be at least of a minor help even to an Aspie to ask himself, if there is anything that makes him think that she is more sensitive to the Asperger issue than average people.

Make her see an Asperger movie (together with common friends) or offer her an Asperger book that bears some interest for her. After all people simply dont know enough about the spectrum, and if other people have explained things so well, why should you not draw on it. BWT literature, film, movies, and music is primarily done by aspies or people having developped their artistic skills through dealing with aspies, so tell me some of your and her interests and I tell you what might fit.

Getting an NT or less AS friend of yours involved is definitely helpful. We are the ones that can make both of you feel more comfortable when the situation starts getting a little weirdo. But only trust their tips, if you feel very O.K. with them.

All in all it is good to have figured out several ways and phrases of introducing the subject, and then ways of presenting it more or less in detail, when she wants to know more. The good thing about NTs is that they often ask questions, if they see that you are concerned about discussing an issue. You should also definitely try it once more, after a while, if you havent put her completely off the first time. Bigger and more confusing messages often need to settle in even with NTs. Then there is a good chance that some of the girls you like have some autistic traits themselves, and that they have trouble in admitting it (or that they momentarily prefer to hang around with NTs). Having something to hold on gives you more flexibility.

For the big rest you d better trust a lot your gut feeling. As an aspie you even have to trust and develop your gut feelings more, because you lack most of the cognitive empathy that is of so much help to us (and sometimes misguides us). So be spontaneous (I know it sounds stupid) and dont refrain from doing something unconventional or saying what comes into your mind. If an NT appreciates the bizarreness of an Asperger, she must definitely be quite unconventional and open to the not so common stuff.

The exception to the rule are people with a very different cultural background; they have trouble in figuring out whether you are weird because of your culture or because of your being weird. That makes encounters possible that would not be possible otherwise. So foreigners are very good, also for training purposes. If she is a foreigner in your country, there is also a good chance that she is more interested in different kinds of people than the average girl in her home country. As a foreigner, you automatically happen to know much more people that are more open to everything. I believe that staying some time abroad has helped a lot of aspies with their interactive skills. Then countries like England or India (or maybe Russia) seem to have more aspies than others, and a more tolerant attitude towards them.

Aspies get interested in communication and socializing at an older age than NTs, and in my opinion, they can learn later through communication and artistic representation something similar to what NTs learned when playing with puppets or with other children. I think the idea of a sincere playfulness (Schiller), or of an aesthetic playing field providing the freedom to cultivate moral judgement (Kant) is even more true for them than it is for NTs. It is not only the reaction of the other that counts (and which is in any case always difficult to evaluate for an aspie), but also how you feel during the interaction. As their own feelings are often also not very obvious for an aspie, I should maybe add that your feelings are definitely closely linked to how the other feels, even if you might not see that link very well. Those aspies who do see it can be the most charismatic / manipulative people on earth. An NT would have too guilty a conscience if he developed his impressing and influencing skills to that extent without his empathic wisdom keeping up pace.

This brings me to my last point: True shyness is as attractive as is true self-assurance (says someone who falls into the latter category).