General Question About AS *People*

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I know this wasn't intended for me to answer (AspieBrother is my husband though... and I know where he's coming from in regard to this post). I'll just comment briefly...

As far as my BIL... it often seems very much like he doesn't "experience" gratitude... which is different than the expression of it. The replies here have been really helpful for me, personally. Sometimes having feelings internally don't lead to outward expression... so just because he walks around frowning all the time, lol... doesn't mean he is always unhappy.

I have noticed that about him... for example: We went shopping together; he isn't much for shopping Problem is he had no "regular" clothes -- he had what he needed for work, which was office attire, somewhat formal and he had PJs. Nothing in between... nothing to just kick around in or wear to the grocery store or farmer's market, etc. So we went and got him some jeans... a few shirts, some new casual shoes... on the outside, he seemed really bored and uninterested in the entire event and with all the clothes he saw and tried on. When asked which of the 3 pairs of jeans he tried on he liked best... he just mumbled and took one pair out of my hands and shuffled toward the check out.

In anyone else's eyes -- it would look like he really couldn't possibly care less about the new clothes... but on the way home we decided to stop for lunch and I suggested thatif he wanted to, to go ahead and throw on the jeans in the backseat (windows are tinted and I was up front with my husband). So -- he did -- he changed into his entire new outfit, shoes and all

In fact -- he wore that damn outfit for 3 days in a row I know he liked it, I could tell by his actions... I could tell by how he carried himself in it... he seemed (from what I observed anyway) to feel more or less like he kind of fit in more... in this outfit -- I mean, who wears office clothes to a Sushi restaurant on a Saturday afternoon? He knows these things but often doesn't know "how" to change them or how exactly to fit in and feel comfortable. He never said thank you for taking him shopping... or for helping him pick out the clothes -- or even for us BUYING them,

But... I did know he liked the clothes and the afternoon... even if he never said so. I DO think he needs to learn to say so sometimes though.

As far as thinking people with AS are aliens No... no more so than women are from venus and men are from mars

Sometimes it does feel "alien" (only on the terms of being so different in many ways) to learn about AS... but it isn't alien in a bad way any more than recognizing and learning the differences between men and women in general -- fundamentally different creatures, yet one is not better than the other...

Yeah, that's the gist of it from what I've been reading. It's weird to me why there this this need to predict, however. It seems to me that the rest of the world accepts this unpredictability - but recognizes with 6.5 billion people running around - that "chaos" that seems to cause such distress will find a match that they're happy with - and therefore it's okay.



Honestly speaking, are Aspies any different in that respect? For example - within this thread - I've seen a person make a point to include his brother's weight, and how he behaves like an irritating reality-tv star? (not picking on you, dude, but just struck me as ironic). Don't we all share in those same qualities?



The thing that's weird to me is - why is there this "starting point" of believing that the world doesn't like you? For the most part - my experience is - the world has no opinion about me whatsoever. I don't walk into a room with any preset beliefs about what/who I am. Any predictions that I make about how things will go are completely internal. They will be either as successful as I make them, or as bad as I make them. When you really boil it down - the world thinks about me about >< that much.



That's the thing that I wonder. I wonder if the resistance to looking someone in the eye is because looking someone in the eye *is* so personal in a lot of ways. When there's a presupposition that "people don't like me" - why expose yourself to their judgment that you know is coming? I could be completely off on this - but that's how it's always seemed to me in the context of everything else I hear.



Yes, I've done that to the extent of things that I know that I did that were wrong. Now it's just gotten weird - because I don't know where to go with it. I can't bring myself to say once again that I was a horrible brother because I snuck out of the house at night, or listened to the Beatles until 1am when I was 15 years old. That wouldn't be honest. I'll admit fault and be sincere in my gesture when it comes to things that make sense to me...and those don't. Unfortunately, those are the things he's focusing in on now. If there's something else, he won't communicate it.

I'm hoping that the other poster was right - and that it's simply a misguided means of small talk done without acknowledgment of how much it irks me.

Wel now that it is explained a bit more it makes more sence.
It could possibly be that he is so used to getting stuff handed to him since he was a kid that he sees it as the way it's supposed to be.
Not really realising that you worked for the money and you spend your time helping him.

When i hear more and more about him one thing just seems sooo obvious to me.
He is still like a kid that hasn't been able to reach maturity.
If you could find the proper ways to achieve him you could proberbly get 20 years of development through in a few years.
But as of now he seems to be living like a teenager always using people around him like someone would his parents.
Try finding ways to make him do things by himself.
Or atleast try to make him realise how much you help him.

It seems he is truely living in his own world....

Many of us have sensory issues...it's part of the package (google sensory defensiveness or sensory overload to understand it more)...alot of us don't like shopping, myself included. Shopping for me is going in, getting what I need as quickly as I can get it, and getting out as fast as possible. I do my Christmas shopping online.

The noise, the lights, the people....blech. I love yard sales and thrift shops...I normally tend to avoid big super-centers and Wal Ma*t at all costs...I'd rather go to the dentist and have my teeth filled.

That is so accurate and on target!! ! More than anything... I would love a way to "really get through to him".

It is not just AS with him though... it is many, many years worth of living with and being close to only 2 other people who were/are suffering with some degree of mental illness. For him -- that was "the norm" and he either picked up on those things by habit -- or else (maybe?) he biologically inherited aspects of them as well.

There are certainly common traits shared between people with AS.... and as has been mentioned, those things vary from person to person. On top of this... he has become paranoid, self-absorbed, and has learned many "bad habits".

To say that most people with AS are paranoid, self-absorbed people with bad habits would be not only unfair, but also inaccurate. With him -- for someone who is pretty unfamiliar with AS to begin with -- it is difficult to draw a distinction between what might be AS related and what may be something else entirely.

I think that the "getting through to him" aspect is based on AS though... learning about it and coming to an understanding of what types of communication does and does not "generally" make sense.

I have learned a little about that part... it extends to many things... crowds and shopping of course, are one of those things. He was quite the trooper though -- but I doubt that's going to be any part of his daily life In many ways I can't say I blame him

Its not a matter of accepting it or not accepting it that denotes a choice.. in this instance for the most part we are simply incapable of accepting it just as many people (perhaps you included) are simply incapable of wiggling your ears.



Yeah and thats more or less my point.. you misunderstand him due to his strange behavior that doesn't accurately reflect his intentions and the same holds true for his observations of you.



Its because you have a chance experience has taught you that whether or not people like you is determined by the choices you make and the things you do. For autistics you can only have people say mean things to you, throw things at you, and gossip about you without understanding why for so long before you realize that people just know that your different and human beings by their nature hate and fear what they don't understand. Over our lifetimes we meet hundreds of people. When you get negative feedback from 90% of them just for being yourself you start to suspect that the next person you meet probably wont like you either.



Its the chicken and the egg thing again.. looking someone in the eye is hard from birth it has nothing to do with later finding out people don't like you because they think your weird or untrustworthy because you don't look them in the eye.



Why cant you take his word for it? If a person with an internal injury says it hurts you cant feel it and have no proof but you can sympathize anyways. Even if it doesn't make sense as to why it was a problem isn't the fact that it obviously was a problem reason enough? Without more info I could only hazard a guess but the music and sneaking around probably kept him awake and stressed out for hours every night making his days even more difficult than they needed to be.



Thats a possibility. He may not remember much else about his childhood so theres not much to talk about. I have that problem with my sister.. I clearly remember her telling me to stay away from her because I was "weird" and other "mean" things but nothing about the normal day to day stuff like playing and having fun.

Its unlikely he'd ask you to but he might appreciate and enjoy being told stories of some of the happier times you two had together as kids if he cant remember.

In short, yes we experience gratitude- and love and affection and a desire to be around people we care about and a desire for them to be well and happy. That being said, there's a reason it's called autism- as you may know, it literally means "selfism".

Maybe you and your brother just have clashing personalities. It sounds a little like my relationship with my mother, who is very smothering and alarmist and difficult to handle. She yells a lot and rants about how unjust things are, and I find it very overwhelming. I'm almost always angry with her and she gives me meltdowns. Maybe your brother finds you overwhelming.

I have a warm and loving and expressive relationship with my husband. I often feel grateful to him for small and large things and I make sure he knows it. I do things for him in return. Things aren't that way with my mother and it's just a matter of personality. My husband is quiet and soothing and gentle. My mother is abrasive and loud and alarming. When she does nice things for me I barely notice because I feel like I'm always defending myself from her.

As for a general dislike of people, well frankly you'd feel that way too if you experienced the things we do. We aspies attract bullies. We're socially vulnerable and people can tell. From my perspective, countless peope have done unfathomably cruel things to me over my lifetime. I have done nothing that I can think of to deserve it. People contantly do cruel things that I would never ever consider doing to another soul. It has made me a very bitter, angry and untrusting person. You would be too.

Aspiebrother, here is a response fyi, about eye contact that I thought might help you to understand:


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 151153.htm

That's possible, and it's possible that our lack of consistent contact over the years has left him unaware that "ya know, people grow up."



I think it's a little presumptuous to assume that you're aware of my life's circumstances, or how I would react to them. I try to keep within my perspective that Josef Mengele did unfathomably cruel things to the Jews. Jeffrey Dahmer did unfathomably cruel things to his victims. Charles Manson and his family were unfathomably cruel to their victims. Anything that has happened to me kind of pales in comparison on the "unfathomably cruel" scale. Whatever poking and ribbing and nonsense that I may have gone through over my life, while disconcerting at the time, in the whole scheme of things is pretty meaningless.

You say that "people constantly do cruel things that you would never consider doing to another soul". Maybe you should re-evaluate that. For example, my wife made a post which expressed sincere concern about my brother. She is concerned because she loves him, and wants the best for him. If you disagree with her on how she's approaching it - express the concern while recognizing where she is coming from. Instead - the first thing out of your mouth was "you are meddlesome", and "if I were him I'd hate you, too."

I understand the desire to believe yourself as the hapless gentle good natured innocent, victimized by an insensitive world, but maybe you ought to reflect a bit on how your anger may be impeding yourself from actually being *that*.

Yes.

But you didn't directly experience any of those things how can you know what it was like? How can you know what we've experienced when you've live a fairly normal life? In the realm of day to day experiences things like having a group of children laugh derisively and throw rocks at you until your bleeding and on the ground at 10 years old kinda ranks pretty high on the cruelty scale.. I could give you a similar example for nearly every year Ive lived. As far as a single incident goes yes the stuff we've been through may not rank quite as high but considering its been a regular occurance throughout our lives the sheer amount of cruelty adds up to a pretty staggering amount of painful memories.



And this is the problem.. you are angry at them because you have interpreted what they have said incorrectly. Its why we try to be blunt and appreciate bluntness.. interpretation is the mother of all misunderstandings. They said nothing like "you are meddlesome" or "I would hate you too" but you have incorrectly assumed that is what they meant.



Its not a matter of believing ourselves to be anything. We are what we are (autism is very big on "zen" types of thinking) nothing more nothing less. They know they are angry and they know all its consequences. It is you who are trying to create an image for them then complaining about its contradictions they are not interested in how you perceive them. They are simply saying what they think.

Contradictions bother you but they are strange things.. if you don't look at them they don't exist.

Can an autistic have two diametrically opposed opinions on a matter at the same time? Of course. Simply let them be what they are (zen thing again) and theres no problem.

She is telling you like it is. Why don't you believe her? We all, on this board, have scarily similar stories about bullying and rejection. For you to discount what she just said then say the mistreatment she received maybe was her fault is rather presumptuous on your part.

Remember, this board is a support site for aspies. Please be more supportive.

Okay, that was presumptuous of me, and I apologize. I'm not sure why you're so angry about it though. I'm just trying to explain why I'm a bitter person.



I get the impression you're trying to belittle the things I've gone through, and I don't appreciate it. The kinds of things I'm talking about change people's personalities and perspectives on life. Serial killers just leave people dead. Apples and oranges.

EDIT: Also, don't you think it's a little weird that you're arguing about my choice of descriptive phrases when you don't even know what events I'm talking about?



There were reasons for my anger that I think you don't understand. Apparently I didn't explain them well enough. I stopped arguing the point because your wife asked me to stop.

Your wife was talking about going to court to force your brother to abide by a certain way of life. As I said in the other thread, I believe that it is neither moral nor legal to limit someone's freedoms unless he is a danger to himself or others.

Being a slob and having no credit do not qualify as such. She simply finds it distasteful. Perhaps it is distasteful and unwise, but it is his right to be that way. Countless people live on the streets, in poverty, and in filth. They live "off the grid." As much as you and your wife want the best for your brother and you think it's horrible that he might end up living that way, it is unfair of you to try to force him to live any way other than how he chooses. She even said that he didn't want help. If he didn't want help and she is trying to force it on him, what do you want me to call it other than meddlesome?

As for telling her I'd hate her if I was him, that was an unfair emotional outburst on my part, and I sincerely apologize.




I certainly didn't call myself a hapless good-natured innocent. I called myself an angry, bitter person. I almost always assume the worst in people, because I'm not very good at predicting people's behaviour and I get burned a lot. What I do my best not to do is initiate cruelty. From my perspective, your wife was being very unfair to someone with whom I identify. You're right though; I was unnecessarily harsh and I do sincerely apologize for that. I really am very sorry. Please pass on my apology.

Apology accepted, and I apologize if it seemed like I was being demeaning to what you've gone through. I do recognize that a person's own experience is all that they have to gauge by. I don't mean to demean anything that you've been through.

I was not suggesting that anything was her fault.