The NT Has No Clothes

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Suppose though that I cannot imagine such a society; that in all the infinite possibilities my imagination can conjure up, I cannot find a plausible-sounding one in which something like autism is not a disorder of the individual?

Yes, it probably wouldn't be called Autism. It most likely be just as flawed as this society. That is utopia-like society, which is not possible. I can imagine one quite easily. I want to right a story about utopia. Where people just find it boring. Since it is so perfect. No conflict, of issues would make life boring. That is only partly utopic.

Last edited by Pieplup on 02 Nov 2016, 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

If a society is sharing and collaborative, as opposed to competitive, that doesn't at all mean that life isn't full of challenges and difficulties, and disagreements with others that need to be resolved (not necessarily by someone winning, but by arriving at creative solutions that different parties can live with) - but ones that are faced with proactiveness and positivity. And (small detail) happier people.

If you'd call such a collaborative society 'utopia', well, many people have lived something approaching that (suggest seeing the documentary film 'The Economics of Happiness', and reading 'The Continuum Concept') the fact is if we carry on with the competitive model complete with you win/I lose or I win/you lose money system, no matter what you call that kind of society, it isn't sustainable for very much longer, it's destroying where we live, and local communities, and no-one's happy. Surely it's worth attempting to live differently, on an individual level, rather than going like lambs to the slaughter??

I was a bit of a fatalist, but what changed my mind? I guess having children of my own. It's now very clear to me (since observing this at first hand) that young human beings have strong natural tendencies towards enthusiam, thirst for knowledge, desire to give to others, to be active and useful, and to love and be loved in return.. if these things are hardly detectable by the time we reach our teenage years, it is because of the environment we have been living in and the culture we are exposed to in the interim.

Here's a quote from Eisenstein that pretty much sums it up for me: 'the fix we now find ourselves in.. is not due to human nature (as popularly believed) but rather due to human nature denied'.

I find it easy to differentiate disorders of the individual from disorders of society. As a guide, you need only consider other animals: like them, viable human beings must be able to navigate their natural habitat, secure food, water, and suitable shelter, use their natural means of self-defense, and have sufficient cognitive skills for basic interaction with other members of their species. Anyone who cannot do those things for no reason other than personal limitations has a disorder. The key is that the determination of disorder must be made according to a human being's natural habitat, which is some natural setting, not a city, not industrialized civilization.

Almost any time a human being has to overcome an obstacle that no other animal has to overcome to survive—get a job, function in artificially lit environments, learn how to read—the failure to do so is a symptom of a disordered society.

But isn't humans' natural habitat a social one? Our success began when we worked in groups to run down animals to eat. Social interaction was intrinsic to our success as a species. Civilization is a natural result of that.

Yes, the natural human habitat is a social environment, but civilization is not a social environment in my opinion. It is an asocial environment, a place where no one knows anyone and cannot trust anyone, where stress and fear reign because everyone is in competition with everyone else due to a high human concentration and scarce resources.

Small groups like tribes are the natural human social environment.

I agree, except for the not trusting and fear. I don't feel that way. But that could be my medication. I don't have a tribe or clan. I have my mother and my friend and another friend and that's it. So I kinda rely on the larger society. Like, I watch the news all the time.

That's the other side of the same coin then, for whichever trait(s) you have in mind. I couldn't make a statement about autism in general because, even after reading lots of personal experiences on this forum, I'm confused. There's so much variation that I don't see how one could judge all cases the same way.

Best for us not to be so dismissive of the idea of autism as a disorder of the individual, then.



Even in small groups though, autism seems maladaptive.

I don't know what you are talking about, but I was talking about uncivilized social structures—situations in which the members have known only each other for their whole lives. And I did not mention it to make a statement about whether or not autism is maladaptive.

starkid, very interesting observations, yes and good points - also the other comments (just caught up here), everyone you are a bunch of really observant, articulate people!! Even those who don't agree with me, I apply that to all ..

It seems to me that this aspie/autistic trait of not fitting in or 'not playing' (this woman Eleanor Longden did a brilliant Ted talk, seeable on YouTube, and her kind of mantra is 'a sane reaction.. to insane circumstances'), is one that potentially could bring about VERY NECESSARY changes to the way we do things in our society. So as much as it does cause awful suffering, it could easily be a step in our evolution.. am I going too far??

Perhaps there could be something in this .. 'The meek shall inherit the earth' (the bold having done their best to destroy it). Sorry to the agnostics for the bibilical reference, I'm no bible-mouse but there are on occasion some rather compelling things said in there ! !!

The problem is that mankind are still cavemen and survival of the fittest rules. We may have added rules and laws but NT's dont seem to take them literally and getting caught seems to be what they try to avoid. The idea of right and wrong seems unimportant if the group agrees to turn a blind eye to members who flout the rules. For autists this is a minefield and perhaps why the best advice is to keep NT's at arms length unless you wont to play their game. Which is, survival of the fittest imo. Watch them do fouls in football. Great thread!

The problem is that mankind are still cavemen and survival of the fittest rules. We may have added rules and laws but NT's dont seem to take them literally and getting caught seems to be what they try to avoid. The idea of right and wrong seems unimportant if the group agrees to turn a blind eye to members who flout the rules. For autists this is a minefield and perhaps why the best advice is to keep NT's at arms length unless you want to play their game. Which is, survival of the fittest imo. Remember WW2 and the loyalty shown to their glorious leader? If you were an objector you got sent to a camp. Others turned a blind eye to that also. George Orwell captchered this mentality well. Great thread!