I think I’ll just start seeing NTs as disabled

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Perhaps one of the major disabilities NTs by and large have is their need to see themselves as normal rather than normative.

It's amazing how some human minds can differ in various brain functions, and at the same time, be exactly the same in others.

Because of ASD, some people living with the disorder cannot intuitively understand the emotions of others. And of those who can understand their disorder, some develop negative emotions which triggers a tapestry of thought processes/decision making which leads to a superiority complex - "I'm better than you" that can be a dangerous gateway in the mind to bad places (both personally and societally).

People who are NT, even though they have this intuitive emotional understanding of others (although obvious degrees of ability exists here too), some still develop the same superiority complex.

Every wonder this happens? I have and here's my take on it........My 6 year old son has ASD, non-verbal, stims and is very noticeably different to his peer group in his daycare. One day a few of his class mates started asking questions about why he doesn't talk/respond/play with them. Of course the daycare staff said "He just can't and he needs help". Do you think these kids his age shunned him, looked down on him or tried to separate themselves from him? None did, it was quite the opposite. Once the kids understood my son couldn't do these things and he need help they all wanted to help him, and it got to the point where the daycare staff had to make a rule where only two of them could help my son at one time - they were swarming him this pure childhood reaction - he needs help so I will help him. It was great to see.

So what happens later on in life when something changes this reaction to "he's different, she's odd, he's dangerous, she doesn't know what she's doing so it's not her fault - we know because were "us" etc. etc". I really had to think about this for a bit, but it became very clear in my mind - the reason is sexual maturity and species reproduction, it's in our genetic coding and not seemingly in our conscious thought process. For NTs, we often see ourselves (I'm, one too....I think ) as "us" vs. "them". But "them" isn't just people with ASD, it's also people with intellectual disabilities, physical disabilities, gender differences, race, people with diseases and anything different from the one "individual" person - but everyone who is human unconsciously thinks this way. And I mean everyone, even people with ASD.

It's almost like we all have a unknown sense, an ability to make out what's different about someone and want to separate ourselves from them. The reverse also seem to happen too - what we find better or more attractive about someone makes us drawn to that person.

Here's a hypothetical example: Ask someone who has been a victim of racism or bigotry, they say that it's wrong for all the right reasons, but they won't try to understand why it happens except from the obvious "they are/look different from me" response. Ask that same person if they would want their daughter or son marrying a person of the same race as the one who hurt them - most likely they'll say yes as not everyone is a racist. Ask them about their feelings of their daughter or son marrying a person with a intellectual disability, psychological or mental health issue or physical disability? If their honest, they'll tell you no, or want to say no, because they'll have that gut check feeling not to.

That's not you and that's not me, right? We're better than that, right? If we're honest, that gut check feeling is in everyone, it's pre-programed by our genetic coding, and it sets the foundation for our decision making processes that leads to reproduction, but it also leads to other decision making that take our minds to those bad places and reveals itself as racism, sexism, homophobia, superiority complexes, the holocaust etc. etc.

People often take it for granted that we are separate from the animal kingdom but we are not at all. Animals are born, they reproduce, then die and us humans essentially do the exact same thing - we all stem from the same tree of live. Animals have a fight or flight response that keeps them alive, we as human still have it too. Animals reproduce by trying to be better than their competition via natural selection and this is no different than humans. It's just easier to see in animals than in us over our lifetimes.

Imqua, by considering the above hypothesis, you may have an understanding as to why you and others react this way to people who are different. I only say this as if more people were aware of this (you're 17, imagine if this was taught to kids in your school?) it would help everyone overcome these negative thought processes that lead to bad things. I believe that everyone is human and should be treated with equality, respect and dignity. IMHO, when a person starts to project themselves as more than others it's an attempt to dehumanize other people (and it hurts everyone, including the person saying it) - the term "disabilities or disabled" shouldn't be used in such a way.

The rest of your post is nice, but this is not true.

That's a great way of saying it!

Starcats, in your opinion, where did I error on this point? I didn't want to say "all people" or "sometimes some people" etc etc as everyone is different. I've learned so much from reading posts on this forum, reading different literature form both NT researches aimed at helping people with ASD and from people living with ASD. From what I can tell, this point holds true, but I'm always open to hearing other peoples perspectives.

Perhaps consider the following information:


The double empathy/cross-neurological hypotheses of Milton and Beardon can be summarised as follows:

(1.) non-autistic people appear to have as much difficulty in understanding autistic minds as vice versa;

(2.) autistic people often develop a greater understanding of society than non-autistic people develop of autism; and

(3.) autistic people have a similar ability to empathise with other autistic people as non-autistic people have with their peers.

Milton does not suggest that non-autistic people are less capable of developing an understanding of autism than vice versa; as he points out, it is simply that autistic people have no choice but to try to develop an understanding of society if they are to ‘survive and potentially thrive’ whereas no such imperative applies in the opposite direction (Milton 2012).


Copied and pasted from the following PDF link:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09687599.2014.949625?needAccess=true

I could only read the abstract via that link, unfortunately. Could you please post a link to the article in full?

I am really surprised that the PDF did not work ~ try perhaps this alternative link:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09687599.2014.949625

Last edited by Deepthought 7 on 25 May 2018, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thank you that works. I will read it later or tomorrow as my day and night is pretty full up with various things. Looks very interesting.

There are a lot of threads here about empathy you could search. People with autism have the same capacity for emotional empathy (feeling what another person feels with them), and sometimes a lot more. For me what I feel from other people is so intense that I often freeze and have no idea how to communicate what is expected. That doesn't mean I don't understand the emotions of others, it means it's hard for me to process what to say or do because it's so overwhelming.

If you're thinking of alexithymia, there is a high co morbidity rate with autism. But that doesn't mean someone with that can't understand others. Alexithymia means they can't identify or label what they feel, but they would still be able to intuit the emotions of others, just not define them.

I often feel like the opposite of what you wrote is true. Because I communicate differently, NTs are not able to intuitively understand how I feel.

Some NTs might be superficial or willfully ignorant but to call them "disabled" is one of those phony "self-esteem" boosters for people with differences. I would like to be more like the best of the NTs I see, those who have relationships and genuine accomplishments.

I want to be more like NTs as well. It just makes me feel hopeless when all my social issues are seen as mistakes I make and NTs naturally know the correct answer. If I just see it as me accommodating to their way of thinking and limitations it seems *a lot* more do-able. Like when I talk a bit too much instead of scolding myself for being a useless or slow aspie I can instead tell myself “Remember that NTs can’t process language the same way you do. Try to keep things more short and snappy so they can pay attention better.” It’s not like I stop seeing myself as disabled either. I just feel more like I’m on even ground with NTs when I see them as disabled. Or at least approach issues with them the same way I’d approach issues with people who don’t think like me.

Thank you again. That article was absorbing to me, as it put in words what I have been thinking about for the past 3 months, that TOM is a two way street. However I had not developed to the point that the writer mentions - that AS people are more gifted in TOM, because they have to be, as they live in socially constructed societies. It's so good when I stumble across such fresh points of view, as I have done several times in that article alone already.

Also the references provide me with much more food for thought, so far I have only started by reading one, and reading the whole trail of links - those I can access - may turn into a Winter project (Winter is starting here .)

I could be wrong, but I think the point of shifting the paradigm and seeing NTs as "disabled" instead of aspies is not to actually see NTs as disabled, but just to shake up the perspective. Everyone has something to offer and has areas they need help in.

Shaking up the perspective helps me to see other angles, other lights, other points of view. As a pattern learner, the more data, the better the pattern resolution.

I also can't get the point that the OP is trying to get across.

Sorry it took me a week to respond - I was busy this past week.

I would say my original statement which didn't say "all people", only "some people" remains true in my minds eye anyways. But I clearly recognize and support your feelings on this matter - after all you know your own mind better than a stranger on the internet. This short article was well put and well argued but two points stick out for me:

1.) There is no mention of cognitive empathy vs effective empathy. Some people living with ASD develop robust cognitive empathy due to their deficits in effective empathy. This higher degree of cognitive empathy would naturally lead into a better understanding of NT society - anyone who has to constantly or near constantly think about any particular topic would have a greater understanding of it verses the average person who rarely puts their mind to the same subject - this is what yields a mind to become an expert in a field of work, I see nothing different here, other than from an autistic point of view the field of work is "NTs".

2.) "...Beardon argues that autistic people have a similar empathy with other autistic minds..." I find this comment highly inaccurate, and it cannot be true in all cases either. My son is 6 years old, in his daycare/school there is another boy with ASD who often is paired with him and as well I've made play dates for them outside of the school/daycare setting. Not once have the other parents or I ever noticed either of our little guys communicating with each other. To assume that either one of them have a better idea of what each other is thinking (on any level) verses the other NT kids in the class is clearly wrong and stands out from 4 years of daily observations - at their young age it is very apparent their ASD deficits affect their understanding of others both with ASD and without equally. Maybe this will change over a long period of time, but I cannot image this changing anytime soon, as either child has shown no signs of developmental progress towards this. I hope I'm wrong here, and that my son can understand everything/feeling/emotion and he simply cannot communicate it back to us, but it appears to be the other way.