The reason the notion of autism spectrum should be offensive

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EzraS
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17 Jul 2018, 10:18 pm

MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with hypersensitivity?


I don't have hypersensitivity.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with restrictive and repetitive interests?


NT-s have restricted repetitive interests too: watching football all day long. They don't notice their own interests as abnormal but they notice aspie interests as such. Thats why aspies are labeled as having restricted repetitive interests. If we were to live in a planet full of aspies then NT-s would be the ones labeled as having those interests.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with disorganized cognitive processing?
What does society have to do with executive dysfunction?


I live far away from my mom and, when I am by myself, I manage just fine. But when I visit her, she starts correcting every single thing I do and reminding me of things. I admit, its because I *look* disorganized. But, just because my backpack is a total mess, it doesn't mean I would forget to cancel my hotel reservation when I change travel plans. Thats the point my mom doesn't seem to get. Or even better example: I lose things all the time, yet I never once lost a passport, because passport is important, other things aren't. My mom doesn't get that either. So maybe autistics don't have "disorganized cognitive processing" or "executive dysfunction". They simply don't regard certain things as important.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with needing to stick to a routine?


I don't need to stick to routine, but my mom thinks that I do. Which is another reason why I get so angry at her when I visit her.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with poor motor skills?


Well, I *look* quite clumsy, but I never once injured myself due to this. So, once again, the issue is whehter its important or not. Who knows, maybe if it was somehow dangerous to be clumsy I would have learned not to be.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with difficulty in conceptualizing?


This difficulty goes two ways. I have difficulty understanding why NT-s do what they do, and NT-s have difficulty understanding why I do what I do. So "difficulty in conceputalizing" is not an aspie trait: rather its something common to anyone (aspie OR NT) when trying to understand someone different.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with issues of proximity and spatial awareness?


Once again, even if I *look like* I am not spacially aware, I never once hurt myself. In fact maybe I am *more* spacially aware than NT-s since I know that certain things aren't dangerous while NT-s don't. For example, my mom keeps getting upset when an edge of my laptop is sticking out of the table, because the laptop would presumably fall. I know for a fact it won't fall, but my mom keeps thinking it would. Well, the fact is that it never did. So apparently I am more spacially aware than my mom.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with learning difficulties?


I was AHEAD of other students both in high school as well as an undergrad. In grad school, however, I *DID* encounter learning difficulties. But, given that most NT-s don't even make it to grad school on the first place, why would you call it a unique aspie issue?


So since the effects of general autism issues should be judged on a case by case basis, shouldn't we all have individual labels?



MalchikBrodyaga
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17 Jul 2018, 10:28 pm

EzraS wrote:
MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with hypersensitivity?


I don't have hypersensitivity.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with restrictive and repetitive interests?


NT-s have restricted repetitive interests too: watching football all day long. They don't notice their own interests as abnormal but they notice aspie interests as such. Thats why aspies are labeled as having restricted repetitive interests. If we were to live in a planet full of aspies then NT-s would be the ones labeled as having those interests.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with disorganized cognitive processing?
What does society have to do with executive dysfunction?


I live far away from my mom and, when I am by myself, I manage just fine. But when I visit her, she starts correcting every single thing I do and reminding me of things. I admit, its because I *look* disorganized. But, just because my backpack is a total mess, it doesn't mean I would forget to cancel my hotel reservation when I change travel plans. Thats the point my mom doesn't seem to get. Or even better example: I lose things all the time, yet I never once lost a passport, because passport is important, other things aren't. My mom doesn't get that either. So maybe autistics don't have "disorganized cognitive processing" or "executive dysfunction". They simply don't regard certain things as important.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with needing to stick to a routine?


I don't need to stick to routine, but my mom thinks that I do. Which is another reason why I get so angry at her when I visit her.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with poor motor skills?


Well, I *look* quite clumsy, but I never once injured myself due to this. So, once again, the issue is whehter its important or not. Who knows, maybe if it was somehow dangerous to be clumsy I would have learned not to be.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with difficulty in conceptualizing?


This difficulty goes two ways. I have difficulty understanding why NT-s do what they do, and NT-s have difficulty understanding why I do what I do. So "difficulty in conceputalizing" is not an aspie trait: rather its something common to anyone (aspie OR NT) when trying to understand someone different.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with issues of proximity and spatial awareness?


Once again, even if I *look like* I am not spacially aware, I never once hurt myself. In fact maybe I am *more* spacially aware than NT-s since I know that certain things aren't dangerous while NT-s don't. For example, my mom keeps getting upset when an edge of my laptop is sticking out of the table, because the laptop would presumably fall. I know for a fact it won't fall, but my mom keeps thinking it would. Well, the fact is that it never did. So apparently I am more spacially aware than my mom.

EzraS wrote:
What does society have to do with learning difficulties?


I was AHEAD of other students both in high school as well as an undergrad. In grad school, however, I *DID* encounter learning difficulties. But, given that most NT-s don't even make it to grad school on the first place, why would you call it a unique aspie issue?


So since general autism issues should be judged on a case by case basis, shouldn't we all have individual labels?


Well, there *should* be a middle ground, I am just saying that what we currently have is not a correct middle ground. Here are a couple of examples where I *do* like the way labeling is done:

1. Bipolar disorder with psychotic features and schizoaffective disorder is likely part of the same spectrum, YET the former is classified in mood disorders and the latter in psychotic disorders to take individual situations into account.

2. Schizotypal personality disorder is likely part of schizophrenia spectrum, yet it is classified as a personality disorder instead of psychotic disorder because its really mild.

Now, in both cases, you could ask "why not break down those four labels even further, since there is also a lot of variation within each label". The reason they are not broken down further is precisely because of what you said: you don't want to make as many diagnoses as there are people. HOWEVER what WAS done is that they were broken down "enough" in order not to lump together severely affected and mildly affected. Thats what I want to see happening with autism. I mean, the distance between high functioning and low functioning autism is just as big, if not greater, than the distance bewteen schizotypal personality disorder and schizophrenia. So if schizotypals and schizophrenics receive different labels, why can't high functioning and low functioning autistics also receive different labels?



EzraS
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17 Jul 2018, 10:46 pm

But who are the purposed extra autism labels for? Us or them? Most people don't know much if anything about the conditions you listed above or what the different labels infer.



MalchikBrodyaga
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17 Jul 2018, 11:09 pm

EzraS wrote:
But who are the purposed extra autism labels for? Us or them? Most people don't know much if anything about the conditions you listed above or what the different labels infer.


The fact that most people don't know is part of the problem: so in other words most people are assuming we are all like Rainman. Well, if we had different labels this would solve the problem. Instead of hearing "autism" and thinking Rainman, they would hear whatever the label is, and ask "whats that", to which you can actually tell them what it actually is, instead of them making an assumption.



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17 Jul 2018, 11:31 pm

MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
EzraS wrote:
But who are the purposed extra autism labels for? Us or them? Most people don't know much if anything about the conditions you listed above or what the different labels infer.


The fact that most people don't know is part of the problem: so in other words most people are assuming we are all like Rainman. Well, if we had different labels this would solve the problem. Instead of hearing "autism" and thinking Rainman, they would hear whatever the label is, and ask "whats that", to which you can actually tell them what it actually is, instead of them making an assumption.


Hasn't that already been in play a long time with "Aspergers, a form of autism"? I'm not necessarily opposed to what you're suggesting by the way. Just examining it.

One problem I see with segregating the autism community, is I already feel like I don't fit in, since so many threads are titled aspie this and aspie that. I just have plain ol autism. Many people here object to NT's posting here, so since I have classic "rainman ret*d" type autism, shouldn't I also be excluded?

The funny thing with that is, when I was younger I posted a can of worms thread titled "how can you be autistic when" (or something like that) and went on to say how can they be autistic when they have a spouse/so, be a parent, have friends, a career, go places and do things unassisted etc. It pissed off a lot of aspies here because they felt I was saying they didn't really have autism. One of the aspies most furious with me said something like, "he seems to think we should be called something else!".



MalchikBrodyaga
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17 Jul 2018, 11:50 pm

EzraS wrote:
MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
EzraS wrote:
But who are the purposed extra autism labels for? Us or them? Most people don't know much if anything about the conditions you listed above or what the different labels infer.


The fact that most people don't know is part of the problem: so in other words most people are assuming we are all like Rainman. Well, if we had different labels this would solve the problem. Instead of hearing "autism" and thinking Rainman, they would hear whatever the label is, and ask "whats that", to which you can actually tell them what it actually is, instead of them making an assumption.


Hasn't that already been in play a long time with "Aspergers, a form of autism"? I'm not necessarily opposed to what you're suggesting by the way. Just examining it.

One problem I see with segregating the autism community, is I already feel like I don't fit in, since so many threads are titled aspie this and aspie that. I just have plain ol autism. Many people here object to NT's posting here, so since I have classic "rainman ret*d" type autism, shouldn't I also be excluded?

The funny thing with that is, when I was younger I posted a can of worms thread titled "how can you be autistic when" (or something like that) and went on to say how can they be autistic when they have a spouse/so, be a parent, have friends, a career, go places and do things unassisted etc. It pissed off a lot of aspies here because they felt I was saying they didn't really have autism. One of the aspies most furious with me said something like, "he seems to think we should be called something else!".


Actually what I am suggesting would help you rather than hurt you. In what you just wrote, you expressed a concerned about being grouped together with rainman. Well, what I just suggested would make sure that you don't. I mean, clearly, you don't sound like rainman. The only reason you have the same diagnosis as him is that we have too few labels: we took care of aspies (under the DSM 4) but we didn't take care of the rest of the autism spectrum. Well, if we were to take care of the rest of the spectrum as well, then rainman would get different diagnosis from you, which would solve your problem.



kraftiekortie
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18 Jul 2018, 12:04 am

What should the diagnosis of Rainman be?

I would say: Level 2 autism with savant features.



MalchikBrodyaga
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18 Jul 2018, 12:07 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
What should the diagnosis of Rainman be?

I would say: Level 2 autism with savant features.


I would say "mental retardation with autistic and savant features".



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18 Jul 2018, 12:09 am

He’s not mentally ret*d, though.

His lack of flexibility in language is because of the rather severe autism.



MalchikBrodyaga
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18 Jul 2018, 12:14 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
He’s not mentally ret*d, though.

His lack of flexibility in language is because of the rather severe autism.


But he doesn't understand what is going on around him. Take, for example, the beginning of the movie when it was mentioned he has no concept of money. Or take the way he would memorize the list of airplane accidents to decide which airline to fly. Or even take the fact that he probably didn't know why he took him out of the hospital on the first place, and the way he didn't understand the question whether he wants to be home or in the hospital, or how he asked a prostitute "do you take any prescription medicaiton".

I mean, you can't explain this by lack of social skills. Lack of social skills means that a person knows whats going on they just can't read body language or regulate their own body language. That wasn't the main issue with rainman. Sure, it was one of the issues, but it fades in comparison to everything else.



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18 Jul 2018, 1:27 am

One of the problems is that because autism can affect a person's ability to communicate, it is difficult to judge how much is going on inside their head. That is improving these days with different technologies and communication techniques, and with more understanding of autism so that people are not simply institutionalised because they don't communicate. Limited ability to communicate and process language also means that you have limited access to information.

Things like rainman not understanding the concept of money or the world around him not necessarily indicate a lack of intelligence but a lack of experience. If he taken into hospital at a young age and never had to do his own shopping, then how would he know about money? He doesn't understand the world because he has not been part of the world and no-one has taught him. Most of what he has learned has been from TV.


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You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)


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18 Jul 2018, 1:37 am

MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Actually what I am suggesting would help you rather than hurt you. In what you just wrote, you expressed a concerned about being grouped together with rainman. Well, what I just suggested would make sure that you don't. I mean, clearly, you don't sound like rainman. The only reason you have the same diagnosis as him is that we have too few labels: we took care of aspies (under the DSM 4) but we didn't take care of the rest of the autism spectrum. Well, if we were to take care of the rest of the spectrum as well, then rainman would get different diagnosis from you, which would solve your problem.


Well let's see. I'm primarily nonverbal. I don't look at people when they're talking to me. I'm aloof and withdrawn. I can't be left unsupervised. I can't go anywhere alone or I'll likely get lost and or walk out into traffic. I need significant support in being looked after and taken care of. I have meltdowns due to hypersensitivity and sensory processing issues. I do poorly academically due to cognitive processing issues. So what different diagnosis should I have that would solve my problem?



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18 Jul 2018, 1:48 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
What should the diagnosis of Rainman be?

I would say: Level 2 autism with savant features.


I'd say level 2 moderate/severe just like me.

kraftiekortie wrote:
He’s not mentally ret*d, though.

His lack of flexibility in language is because of the rather severe autism.


The thing that stands out with someone like rainman and me in my opinion is the level of support needed.

Also as we have seen in members who are intellectually disabled ie ret*d is that they've communicated quite well on this forum. KoR being the best example. And off forum Carly Feischmann.



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18 Jul 2018, 3:00 am

EzraS wrote:
MalchikBrodyaga wrote:
Actually what I am suggesting would help you rather than hurt you. In what you just wrote, you expressed a concerned about being grouped together with rainman. Well, what I just suggested would make sure that you don't. I mean, clearly, you don't sound like rainman. The only reason you have the same diagnosis as him is that we have too few labels: we took care of aspies (under the DSM 4) but we didn't take care of the rest of the autism spectrum. Well, if we were to take care of the rest of the spectrum as well, then rainman would get different diagnosis from you, which would solve your problem.


Well let's see. I'm primarily nonverbal. I don't look at people when they're talking to me. I'm aloof and withdrawn. I can't be left unsupervised. I can't go anywhere alone or I'll likely get lost and or walk out into traffic. I need significant support in being looked after and taken care of. I have meltdowns due to hypersensitivity and sensory processing issues. I do poorly academically due to cognitive processing issues. So what different diagnosis should I have that would solve my problem?


Then how come you write here so eloquently? Since you claim you are like Rainman, what about the example of him not being able to answer whether he wanted to be home or at the hospital? If you were asked that question, would you also not able to answer it the way Rainman wasn't? If so, how come you are able to write so well?

Since you said you are being constantly supervised, does it mean that your supervisor is reading what you are writing, just as you type?



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18 Jul 2018, 3:13 am

Goth Fairy wrote:
One of the problems is that because autism can affect a person's ability to communicate, it is difficult to judge how much is going on inside their head. That is improving these days with different technologies and communication techniques, and with more understanding of autism so that people are not simply institutionalised because they don't communicate. Limited ability to communicate and process language also means that you have limited access to information.

Things like rainman not understanding the concept of money or the world around him not necessarily indicate a lack of intelligence but a lack of experience. If he taken into hospital at a young age and never had to do his own shopping, then how would he know about money? He doesn't understand the world because he has not been part of the world and no-one has taught him. Most of what he has learned has been from TV.


First of all, its just a theory, it wasn't actually proven that isolation is a sole reason.

Secondly, if this theory is right, why don't the doctors simply teach autistics everything they need to be taught hereby convert ALL of low functioning into high functioning. Since this doesn't work, it seems to imply that there is more going on than simple lack of information.



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18 Jul 2018, 4:18 am

There seems to be a huge confusion that the more autistic someone is the more they are intellectually impaired. This is based off of the outdated belief that autism is associated with retardation. I've done research on the subject of autism and I've spoken to my psychologist. Someone can be severely autistic without being mentally ret*d. They might have severe problems with communication, sensory issues, etc. but they still can be very smart. Autism used to be confused with retardation because autism can associated with other comorbid mental conditions. Stating that being a low-functioning autistic is equivalent to being ret*d is like saying that being a low-functioning autistic is equivalent to having ADHD or OCD, which, by definition isn't the case, although there can be some circumstances in which that can be the case, just like there could be circumstances in which someone has mild autism and severe ADHD or severe intellectual impairment.

Also, the only characteristics that autism and schizophrenia seem to have in common is that they both might involve a flat effect and social withdrawal, depending on the individual symptoms. However, delusions, paranoia, and hallucinations are unique to schizophrenia and other disorders listed under the category of psychotic disorders and mood disorders. Though, what is strange to me is that there is research that shows that schizophrenia and autism could be genetically related. About half a year ago, I read an online article about modern research in biology/biotechnology done with lab rats. Then again, if it was done with lab rats who knows about the accuracy of translating that to human conditions/behaviors. Years ago, I thought I read an article that OCD might be genetically related to autism but I'm unsure about the source of information that I got that from.

We have all got to be careful about stereotyping each other. It's not always easy to clearly identify someone as "high functioning" or "low functioning" even though the new DSM V has those labels according to an individual's ability to take care of themselves. There are different aspects of social functioning that can be impaired or left unimpaired in each individual (interaction, communication, and a third aspect that I forgot about). I still think we do need the diagnosis to get extra support at work and school, though I still think that autism should be viewed in a positive way because our beliefs become our reality. We can view our condition negatively or view the world negatively, and pay attention to and therefore further draw in a hostile world, or we could focus on the positive aspects of our being or the solutions to the world's problems while realizing that we are all human.