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IsabellaLinton
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16 Jul 2019, 12:56 pm

Amity wrote:
There have been chunks of my life where I've felt that way Isabella and I'm sure that I will feel that way again.

I do wonder how different my life would have been if I had the right support I estimate that I'd be a different person. Lack of knowing my limitations combined with resilience from early experiences meant that I've become more independent than I would have otherwise.
That's an area where it is a positive.


I'm independent too, fiercely so. I wonder if that's always a good thing for me, though. It interferes with my ability to trust and need others, which is also part of a healthy mindset. Just the other day I had to struggle to accept my best friend's help, even though I was in desperate need of support. I don't like feeling dependent on anyone, but I resigned because it was either "accept help, or be hospitalised from stress". :(


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BenderRodriguez
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16 Jul 2019, 1:01 pm

Amity wrote:
For example I might be more resilient becsuse I wasnt diagnosed as a child, the down side being all the not so good stuff that I experienced and those outcomes.

That's pretty much it, as you said earlier it's a double-edged sword.

I've had an extremely harsh childhood and youth (also undiagnosed but that was the least of my problems) and I had to develop mental and physical strength in order to survive in extreme conditions. But all this came at a very high price, one I wouldn't want my children to pay for instance. I became very resilient, but sometimes that also made me incapable of correctly assessing danger and I tend to push through harmful situations without always realising the risks and costs.

Unfortunately, I've also seen people trying to justify child abuse by claiming it "toughens you up" and abusive parents taking credit for their children accomplishments, conveniently ignoring that those kids survived despite the abuse, not because of it.

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I'm independent too, fiercely so. I wonder if that's always a good thing for me, though. It interferes with my ability to trust and need others, which is also part of a healthy mindset. Just the other day I had to struggle to accept my best friend's help, even though I was in desperate need of support. I don't like feeling dependent on anyone, but I resigned because it was either "accept help, or be hospitalised from stress". :(

Sadly, I do this too.


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kraftiekortie
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16 Jul 2019, 1:08 pm

This is an area which is very difficult for me to study----because it isn't so "cut and dried."

Because I have an unequivocal view of intellect and knowledge; perhaps this is owing to me not actually experiencing all which those of a particularly sensitive and artistic bent have experienced. Especially those who have experienced things which many people do not experience.

And because I have a pretty unequivocal view that most people do not know how resilient they COULD be, especially when they are in the "right situation."

In order for me to be a good advocate for a person, I believe I should expand my philosophical scope. I will not, though, ever, advocate for just "throwing in the towel."



epilanthanomai
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16 Jul 2019, 1:17 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Perhaps that is why poets used to write of "Lethe" (the river [perhaps more like stream] of oblivion) during the Romantic Period of English literature.


Fun fact: Lethe and my username are from the same ancient Greek roots. There are some life lessons I'd love to just forget.

I feel like there's multiple ways to recover from difficult situations. Successfully managing non-traumatic difficulty can sometimes teach people new tools for addressing similar difficulties. Overwhelming difficulty can teach people to harden up and just survive instead of managing difficulties. The latter can be traumatic, and it makes it really easy to get stuck in that "harden up and survive" mentality. It might might look like resilience from the outside but ultimately just batters a person and triggers memory of the trauma, making it extremely difficult to build healthier resilient reactions to realistic risks.

I find it really frustrating and alienating when people treat my trauma-forced survival as resilience and congratulate me for it. It's terrifying when people talk about traumatic experiences as if they're laudable because they trigger hard-to-forget survival reactions. To be completely clear, I don't think that's happening in this thread; it just happens more than I like elsewhere in life.



IsabellaLinton
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16 Jul 2019, 1:18 pm

dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
For me personally it seems to make me more vulnerable. I display endurance because I am scared, and that sensation interferes when I am at home. I grow increasingly more emotionally dysfunctional and have to ward away against dark thoughts that, if allowed to fester, will provoke me into a fight or flight state of mind.

It does make me more cynical and pragmatic, which can be helpful. I also have developed coping mechanisms to endure suffering in the moment. Nevertheless, that inability to feel "ok" and just relax can stunt you and make you less adaptable.


I agree with all of this. It ties in with what I posted at the start of this thread, about developing resilience as a result of trauma. I live in a constant state of fear and anxiety from CPTSD; it's my primary motivator for all decisions including those requiring resilience, but fear is also my punishment when I do push forward. It's a Catch 22. For example: A daunting task looms. I have fearful flashbacks of similar daunting tasks where I survived, physically if not emotionally. I know because of the flashback that I've done similar tasks, and that it can be done again, but more fear is created in a loop and the task becomes more frightening than it should otherwise be. I approach the task with crippling trepidation, complete it in a trance using muscle memory, and thus reinforce both my fierce independence and my fear of approaching similar tasks again.

The stubborn part of me says "I've done that. I know how. I'm capable ...", but the emotional part of me imprints pain onto every successful experience, and that's hard to erase.


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IsabellaLinton
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16 Jul 2019, 1:22 pm

epilanthanomai wrote:

There are some life lessons I'd love to just forget.

I feel like there's multiple ways to recover from difficult situations. Successfully managing non-traumatic difficulty can sometimes teach people new tools for addressing similar difficulties. Overwhelming difficulty can teach people to harden up and just survive instead of managing difficulties. The latter can be traumatic, and it makes it really easy to get stuck in that "harden up and survive" mentality. It might might look like resilience from the outside but ultimately just batters a person and triggers memory of the trauma, making it extremely difficult to build healthier resilient reactions to realistic risks.


Yes!

epilanthanomai wrote:
I find it really frustrating and alienating when people treat my trauma-forced survival as resilience and congratulate me for it. It's terrifying when people talk about traumatic experiences as if they're laudable, because they trigger hard-to-forget survival reactions.


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU FOR THIS ^

This is the essence of trauma, which is so hard to convey.


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KimD
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16 Jul 2019, 1:34 pm

When I hear the word "resilience," I sometimes think of the cliche, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"--I believe that some people mistake the endurance that dyadiccounterpoint mentions for that more desirable (and more elusive) trait of positive adaptation. I say this because a coworker and good friend of mine frequently cites that saying, and I try to gently remind her that being alive and thriving can be two different things.

I've been through a few struggles (and howdy--some of them were major!) and consider myself rather resilient, but she's been through terrible things, year in and year out, that would have driven some people to commit headline-making atrocities. I give her tremendous credit for fending that off so very well, but she tends to take things out on herself instead--to those who don't know her, she seems resilient, but I feel like she hasn't really recovered, in part because she didn't have a healthy support system when she needed it most. It can be hard to watch the after-effects sometimes. She deserves better.



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16 Jul 2019, 1:38 pm

I don't feel these experiences are "laudable."

But I do admire people who are able to survive amid difficult odds. I find this admiration to be inevitable. It's hard NOT to admire someone who has survived a lot. I don't feel I want to be upbraided for admiring someone. I don't feel that admiring someone gives the trauma less credibility.

Being "strong" does not mitigate the force and the extent of the trauma. it does not lessen the trauma. I realize that. And I'm realizing it even more day by day.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 16 Jul 2019, 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IsabellaLinton
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16 Jul 2019, 1:39 pm

KimD wrote:
I feel like she hasn't really recovered, in part because she didn't have a healthy support system when she needed it most. It can be hard to watch the after-effects sometimes.


This is a really good point, too. Masking steps in where adaptation leaves off, and people don't see the harmful effects of accumulated stress. Sometimes it's just as important to help a friend stop pushing forward by giving them a safe place to land, as it is to encourage their resilience.


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IsabellaLinton
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16 Jul 2019, 1:46 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't feel these experiences are "laudable."

But I do admire people who are able to survive amid difficult odds. I find this admiration to be inevitable. It's hard NOT to admire someone who has survived a lot.

Being "strong" does not mitigate the force and the extent of the trauma. I realize that. And I'm realizing it even more day by day.


korts,
I'm not suggesting that you have lauded people for their traumatic resilience. I'm talking about people in general, people who value others' resilience without necessarily appreciating its roots. Since I've met you, you've learned a lot about my coping mechanisms and about trauma as a whole. You've been a good sounding board for me, because you allow me to explain myself and my thought processes as a person debilitated by PTSD. This gives me an outlet to articulate my feelings and to learn even more about myself. Your willingness to learn and understand has been directly paramount to my (partial) improvement in the past 18 months.

((Hugs always))


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Edna3362
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16 Jul 2019, 1:54 pm

In my case... I'm not even sure myself.

Sure, my nature is somewhat prideful at the core and would rather take challenges to endure than shortcuts.
Or some parts of me, had this weird type of defences that doesn't involved forgetting, putting a lid or dulling said difficulties, or even able to bypass instincts -- that includes recalling negative experiences over and over that would've stick and control my being simply because I cannot move on.
Yet instead, recalling and actually making sense of it if not tackling it headon, but also in attempts of digesting it in certain ways, be it if it's left out on ambiguity or closures.

Or maybe I'm a bit thick-skinned than I thought and had it easier, or not because I'm also too sensitive in my own opinion in which clashes with other traits that I either want or have.

All I do know is that I cannot take all the credit for it -- my culture is known for laughing at disasters and aftermaths, despite being emotional yet it doesn't necessarily equate to panic or defense but certain attitudes.
They are also known for adapting and acquiring once one had an open mind.

My upbringing simply tells me I cannot afford certain luxuries in life -- and did just that, with the full knowledge of my vulnerabilities. I cannot afford mental health issues. I cannot afford accommodations. etc.
That's just the world I lived in, and I could only do with what I have no matter how little.

But then, I also questioned that all of those things are just luck -- and I was lucky to remain largely unscathed by many things.
Lucky to end up having a network to run onto. Lucky to have the means to defend in certain ways. Lucky to be born with abilties that would fulfill than deny. Lucky enough to keep dodging the bullets of life that would've hit me hard whether or not I'm aware of it.



Not sure how I make of this, and just leave it like that unless someone asks for specifics that is... :|


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Amity
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16 Jul 2019, 2:20 pm

I can understand this Edna, for the things we have no control over we need resilience to survive, whether we adapt positively or not has a lot to do with chance or luck.



BenderRodriguez
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16 Jul 2019, 2:26 pm

epilanthanomai wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Perhaps that is why poets used to write of "Lethe" (the river [perhaps more like stream] of oblivion) during the Romantic Period of English literature.


Fun fact: Lethe and my username are from the same ancient Greek roots. There are some life lessons I'd love to just forget.

I feel like there's multiple ways to recover from difficult situations. Successfully managing non-traumatic difficulty can sometimes teach people new tools for addressing similar difficulties. Overwhelming difficulty can teach people to harden up and just survive instead of managing difficulties. The latter can be traumatic, and it makes it really easy to get stuck in that "harden up and survive" mentality. It might might look like resilience from the outside but ultimately just batters a person and triggers memory of the trauma, making it extremely difficult to build healthier resilient reactions to realistic risks.

I find it really frustrating and alienating when people treat my trauma-forced survival as resilience and congratulate me for it. It's terrifying when people talk about traumatic experiences as if they're laudable because they trigger hard-to-forget survival reactions. To be completely clear, I don't think that's happening in this thread; it just happens more than I like elsewhere in life.


This just perfectly illustrates all I would have wanted to say - I strongly agree with the congratulation part too, it's something I could never explain to people and gave up on saying anything at all: they think they are praising you and get offended if you're not happy about it...


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Amity
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16 Jul 2019, 3:24 pm

From what I've read exposure to risk taking situations in childhood seems to be a core part of building the foundations for developing positive adaptations when needed.
(By risk in this situation I mean free play, climbing, using tools, rough and tumble play etc, relative but real risks)

Edited to include a list of the external factors which research is suggesting has more impact on positive adaptations than the individuals disposition.

Quote:
...contextual factors play an equally large role in producing positive outcomes. Supportive families, accepting peer groups, competent schools and neighbourhood collective efficacy, not to mention more financial resources
link