Board index › General Discussion › General Autism Discussion

I make people angry but don't know how

Page 2 of 2 [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Previous topic | Next topic

B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

10 Feb 2020, 9:04 pm

Maybe you don't make people angry at all in personal encounters. Maybe they misinterpret your verbal and visual signals because of their ignorance of AS norms?

It goes with the territory for most of us, to a greater or lesser degree. It can be confusing and painful if you internalise it as if the whole situation is your personal fault.

I don't think theory of mind applies unless it is seen in the context of a both ways issue - NTs seem to have a much poorer TOM about us than we have about them, most of the time.



Benjamin the Donkey
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Mar 2017
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,390

10 Feb 2020, 9:11 pm

NTS often project their own duplicity onto others. They often try to read between the lines to find a hidden meaning or agenda in what I say, because this is how they communicate. But in my case there's usually nothing hidden--what you see ( and what I say) is what you get.


_________________
"Donkeys live a long time. None of you has ever seen a dead donkey."


blooiejagwa
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,793

10 Feb 2020, 9:13 pm

B19 wrote:
Maybe you don't make people angry at all in personal encounters. Maybe they misinterpret your verbal and visual signals because of their ignorance of AS norms?

It goes with the territory for most of us, to a greater or lesser degree. It can be confusing and painful if you internalise it as if the whole situation is your personal fault.

I don't think theory of mind applies unless it is seen in the context of a both ways issue - NTs seem to have a much poorer TOM about us than we have about them, most of the time.


Your last point is extremely true from my experience that goes for severe ASD too where they think the person can ot understand or is too delayed to get it but gets it immediately (other ppls intents and feelings) but they cant figure out the most obvious things and risk cruelty to the asd person for what they presume to be true.


Also liars assume we are lying as be jamin said.


_________________
Take defeat as an urge to greater effort.
-Napoleon Hill


Karamazov
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Mar 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,979
Location: Rural England

11 Feb 2020, 3:27 am

B19 wrote:
Maybe you don't make people angry at all in personal encounters. Maybe they misinterpret your verbal and visual signals because of their ignorance of AS norms?

It goes with the territory for most of us, to a greater or lesser degree. It can be confusing and painful if you internalise it as if the whole situation is your personal fault.

I don't think theory of mind applies unless it is seen in the context of a both ways issue - NTs seem to have a much poorer TOM about us than we have about them, most of the time.


That’s also a very good point about the limits of autopilot empathy: as far as I can make out it has fuzzy and indistinct boundaries that have some kind of relationship to subjective sense of identity, cultural conditioning, breadth of direct experience & indirect knowledge of other humans doing and thinking differently.
Although in my experience the breadth & openness of any given humans empathy boundaries vary wildly and don’t seem to follow any pattern as to political/religious/national/class affiliation.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

11 Feb 2020, 4:35 am

B19 wrote:
Maybe you don't make people angry at all in personal encounters. Maybe they misinterpret your verbal and visual signals because of their ignorance of AS norms?

It goes with the territory for most of us, to a greater or lesser degree. It can be confusing and painful if you internalise it as if the whole situation is your personal fault.

I don't think theory of mind applies unless it is seen in the context of a both ways issue - NTs seem to have a much poorer TOM about us than we have about them, most of the time.


Ofcourse theory of mind applies. And you just argued for how it does.

A NT can correctly create a construct of another NTs mind in their head in order to converse with the other NT.

An autistic may have actually have good native TOM with other autistics, but not about NTs. Similarly NTs are inept at TOM of the (to them) alien mind of an autistic.

The trouble being that NTs are the majority so they don't have to adapt to autistics and don't have learn the autistic mindset, whereas autistics do have to adapt to NTs, and have to learn to mentally switch gears to adapt to the NT mindset. Life aint fair, but that's how it is.



9BillionNamesofGod
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 56

11 Feb 2020, 5:35 am

blooiejagwa wrote:
9BillionNamesofGod wrote:
It is an issue more on the Internet I suppose than real life, but it does occasionally happen in real life too. For example I comment on a topic somewhere and then people get angry and make things out of what I said that are not there/I didn't mean to say those things at all. It is like I say something and they read something completely different and make me into a person I am not.
I am usually very frigntened/confused by their reactions because it seems to come out of nowhere and escalates very quickly. It is also obvious they think I should apologise, and I did sometimes, thinking at least they would stop being angry but it usually didn't work. And to be honest, I feel that they should apologise for being angry with me for made up reasons.
Anyone has similar expriences when interacting with NT people online?


Yup lots of them have very limited thinking and take things superficially and miss intention and context as well as other meanings etc. They are quite frankly not worth respecting enough that their anger should bother you.


I think it affects my sense of safety when I can't predict the effect of my actions/words. When I don't understand things, I don't feel safe.


_________________
Being obsessed with Asperger's Syndrome is a very Escherian place to be at right now.


9BillionNamesofGod
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 56

11 Feb 2020, 5:40 am

B19 wrote:
Maybe you don't make people angry at all in personal encounters. Maybe they misinterpret your verbal and visual signals because of their ignorance of AS norms?

It goes with the territory for most of us, to a greater or lesser degree. It can be confusing and painful if you internalise it as if the whole situation is your personal fault.

I don't think theory of mind applies unless it is seen in the context of a both ways issue - NTs seem to have a much poorer TOM about us than we have about them, most of the time.


This is very helpful, thank you. I often forget that it takes two to misunderstand each other.


_________________
Being obsessed with Asperger's Syndrome is a very Escherian place to be at right now.


9BillionNamesofGod
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 56

11 Feb 2020, 5:55 am

Karamazov wrote:
B19 wrote:
Maybe you don't make people angry at all in personal encounters. Maybe they misinterpret your verbal and visual signals because of their ignorance of AS norms?

It goes with the territory for most of us, to a greater or lesser degree. It can be confusing and painful if you internalise it as if the whole situation is your personal fault.

I don't think theory of mind applies unless it is seen in the context of a both ways issue - NTs seem to have a much poorer TOM about us than we have about them, most of the time.


That’s also a very good point about the limits of autopilot empathy: as far as I can make out it has fuzzy and indistinct boundaries that have some kind of relationship to subjective sense of identity, cultural conditioning, breadth of direct experience & indirect knowledge of other humans doing and thinking differently.
Although in my experience the breadth & openness of any given humans empathy boundaries vary wildly and don’t seem to follow any pattern as to political/religious/national/class affiliation.


Do you think autistic empathy is diffetent from NT empathy?

Because in my experience NT people tend to be more empathetic towards someone who they perceive as similar to themselves or their group in some ways. And I would say autistic people often base their empathy on an implicit presumption that all living beings are equal, and it is actually someone's place/role in a given situation (and the autistic person's understanding of that situation) that will determine where they place their empathy.

An example for this is when I was little and I was watching a movie with NT relatives: in a scene a group of humans who were stranded on an alien planet started hunting a fury creature that looked like a gigantic rodent. The animal made pitiful sounds as it was trying to escape and I felt really sorry for him/her, which I voiced. One of my reatives looked at me shocked, saying that I should feel sorry for the humans. I didn't understand why - it is not them who got attacked, plus they didn't have to chase the animal as there were enough plants around to eat if they were hungry. To this day I still don't understand why I should be empathic with the agressor and not the one being attacked. To me this doesn't make sense.


_________________
Being obsessed with Asperger's Syndrome is a very Escherian place to be at right now.


Karamazov
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Mar 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,979
Location: Rural England

11 Feb 2020, 6:30 am

9BillionNamesofGod wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
B19 wrote:
Maybe you don't make people angry at all in personal encounters. Maybe they misinterpret your verbal and visual signals because of their ignorance of AS norms?

It goes with the territory for most of us, to a greater or lesser degree. It can be confusing and painful if you internalise it as if the whole situation is your personal fault.

I don't think theory of mind applies unless it is seen in the context of a both ways issue - NTs seem to have a much poorer TOM about us than we have about them, most of the time.


That’s also a very good point about the limits of autopilot empathy: as far as I can make out it has fuzzy and indistinct boundaries that have some kind of relationship to subjective sense of identity, cultural conditioning, breadth of direct experience & indirect knowledge of other humans doing and thinking differently.
Although in my experience the breadth & openness of any given humans empathy boundaries vary wildly and don’t seem to follow any pattern as to political/religious/national/class affiliation.


Do you think autistic empathy is diffetent from NT empathy?

Because in my experience NT people tend to be more empathetic towards someone who they perceive as similar to themselves or their group in some ways. And I would say autistic people often base their empathy on an implicit presumption that all living beings are equal, and it is actually someone's place/role in a given situation (and the autistic person's understanding of that situation) that will determine where they place their empathy.

An example for this is when I was little and I was watching a movie with NT relatives: in a scene a group of humans who were stranded on an alien planet started hunting a fury creature that looked like a gigantic rodent. The animal made pitiful sounds as it was trying to escape and I felt really sorry for him/her, which I voiced. One of my reatives looked at me shocked, saying that I should feel sorry for the humans. I didn't understand why - it is not them who got attacked, plus they didn't have to chase the animal as there were enough plants around to eat if they were hungry. To this day I still don't understand why I should be empathic with the agressor and not the one being attacked. To me this doesn't make sense.


Yeah: that’s exactly the kind of thing I was driving at.
Although I’d be cautious about asserting a clear cut NT/AS fault line there: I’ve known NTs who have developed a high degree of empathy for humans dissimilar to themselves, and the politics/philosophy/religion section of these forums can at times degenerate into partisan sniping (and I’m not sure if I’m entirely innocent on that front).
It a common human frailty that we are all vulnerable to.



Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,842
Location: .

11 Feb 2020, 10:40 am

I have been in trouble a few times in the past for finding something amusing when no one else does. I mean... Well. For example, if I watched someone walk into a door on TV. I would find it funny and my Dad would tell me off saying that the man was hurt.
Another scinario was a church leader I know... Well. He was given my old Fiat which the engine no longer worked, but he found his little car used the same driveshafts, and his old car needed driveshafts. So he had my old Fiat (It may have been my brothers vehicle by then) and he had changed the drive shafts.
Now the car wouldn't start so he took it on the main road to try to bump start it. With that the car burst into flames and he had to get out and leave it there. Now as he was telling me this, I kinda said a "Hoho... You had a lucky escape" (I sometimes give a natural chuckle as a way of expressing the shock?). He thought I was laughing at him for what took place and he told me off for laughing as he could have been killed.
Now I have sometimes in the past given out a kind of nurvous laugh though for me it is rare, but my last girlfriend who had aspergers used to do it often. I thought it was cute and I understood why she did it. But to some they may missread it and not understand.
I guess it is a bit like a dog which wags its tail and growls at you at the same time! (Once had a dog which used to do this to greet you showing all her teeth with it!)
So it is not just humans which do this! There are aspie dogs too! :P


_________________
https://everything2.com/user/Zifendorf/writeups/shutdow


9BillionNamesofGod
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 56

11 Feb 2020, 11:21 am

Mountain Goat wrote:
I have been in trouble a few times in the past for finding something amusing when no one else does. I mean... Well. For example, if I watched someone walk into a door on TV. I would find it funny and my Dad would tell me off saying that the man was hurt.
Another scinario was a church leader I know... Well. He was given my old Fiat which the engine no longer worked, but he found his little car used the same driveshafts, and his old car needed driveshafts. So he had my old Fiat (It may have been my brothers vehicle by then) and he had changed the drive shafts.
Now the car wouldn't start so he took it on the main road to try to bump start it. With that the car burst into flames and he had to get out and leave it there. Now as he was telling me this, I kinda said a "Hoho... You had a lucky escape" (I sometimes give a natural chuckle as a way of expressing the shock?). He thought I was laughing at him for what took place and he told me off for laughing as he could have been killed.
Now I have sometimes in the past given out a kind of nurvous laugh though for me it is rare, but my last girlfriend who had aspergers used to do it often. I thought it was cute and I understood why she did it. But to some they may missread it and not understand.
I guess it is a bit like a dog which wags its tail and growls at you at the same time! (Once had a dog which used to do this to greet you showing all her teeth with it!)
So it is not just humans which do this! There are aspie dogs too! :P


Yes, I do the nervous giggle a lot, in various situations. Nervous smile as well... like someone is talking to me and I get increasingly nervous because of the social aspect of it and release this nervous energy by smiling/giggling... but they might be talking about something sad that happened to them. Now in this case I understand why they would get upset and if I catch myself doing it I try to suppress the urge to smile/giggle.

Aspie dogs, though :lol: :heart:


_________________
Being obsessed with Asperger's Syndrome is a very Escherian place to be at right now.


B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

11 Feb 2020, 5:59 pm

OP, I stayed up all night reading this book, written by an AS man for AS people, and was tremendously impressed. He is in his early 30s now and covers so many of the thread issues I have read in WP over the years. He is a terrifically clear and articulate and easy to read writer, and I highly highly recommend it.

He ends with a recommendation of AS people, especially the newly diagnosed, seeking to connect more to their tribe on Wrong Planet! So it may be that this is one of our members, (and if so and you are reading this - this is the most helpful book for newly diagnosed adults of both sexes that I have seen, and as you say, there is almost nothing written of any use for the newly diagnosed adults).

Well now there is, and it will help the newly diagnosed adults whatever age group they are in.

Title: An Adult with an Autism Diagnosis - A guide for the newly diagnosed
Author: Gillan Drew
Publisher:
Jessica Kingsley.

Here's an interview with him. Curiously I know of a "doppelganger" of his, I wonder if they are somehow related.
https://www.learnfromautistics.com/auti ... adulthood/