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star-lily
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14 Nov 2004, 8:26 am

between Asperger's and high-functioning autism? Are they the same thing? Or two separate disorders?



Last edited by star-lily on 14 Nov 2004, 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Civet
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14 Nov 2004, 9:36 am

From what I understand, high-functioning autism is just a higher-functioning form of Kanner's type autism (the typical type of autism you always here about). The difference between Kanner's type and Asperger's Syndrome is that Kanner's autistics have significant language delay, while this is not present in those with Asperger's Syndrome.

This refers to symptoms in early life, and it is quite possible for someone with Kanner's type autism to become as high-functioning or even higher-functioning than some people with Asperger's.



star-lily
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14 Nov 2004, 9:48 am

thanks Civet.. that clears things up for me a lot.. it is one of those confusing things noone seems to know round here lol.



TaliDaRadical
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14 Nov 2004, 10:45 am

I have higher-functioning autism. It just means that you're a bit less 'NT' and more 'Autie' than AS folk.



anbuend
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14 Nov 2004, 11:48 am

Civet wrote:
From what I understand, high-functioning autism is just a higher-functioning form of Kanner's type autism (the typical type of autism you always here about). The difference between Kanner's type and Asperger's Syndrome is that Kanner's autistics have significant language delay, while this is not present in those with Asperger's Syndrome.

This refers to symptoms in early life, and it is quite possible for someone with Kanner's type autism to become as high-functioning or even higher-functioning than some people with Asperger's.


All of which is complicated by the fact that some of Asperger's original patients had a speech delay and could have been dxed with "Kanner autism". Not sure he ever intended there to be a difference.



Civet
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14 Nov 2004, 11:53 am

Good point, anbuend. I think that the really, the only difference there is is that Asperger studied patients who were higher functioning, while Kanner focused on those who were lower functioning, and unfortunately, the two were not able to get together and share their findings.



anbuend
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14 Nov 2004, 12:13 pm

Civet wrote:
Good point, anbuend. I think that the really, the only difference there is is that Asperger studied patients who were higher functioning, while Kanner focused on those who were lower functioning, and unfortunately, the two were not able to get together and share their findings.


...Kanner studied people who were younger IIRC. Some of his patients went on to earn university degrees, and later on probably would have been (if they hadn't been his original patients) told they couldn't possibly be autistic when the other "experts" got their hands on things and redefined what "Kanner's syndrome" meant. (Not that I believe in higher-functioning/lower-functioning.) My personal opinion is that they both saw and emphasized different facets of the same thing. A third person could have emphasized something totally different about autism -- not functioning level in all this as much as what they were seeing when they looked at us was different. Like if there had been a Dr. Jim Smith who studied autism and he focused in on sensory sensitivities combined with visual ability and some specific language difficulties (in addition to whatever the common threads were between them all), we'd have a "Smith syndrome" considered a subtype of autism not because it was necessarily about functioning or real subtypes as much as because even doctors have biases in what they look at and what they ignore.



Civet
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14 Nov 2004, 12:22 pm

Quote:
...Kanner studied people who were younger IIRC. Some of his patients went on to earn university degrees


I was not aware of that.

Sorry, but what does IIRC mean?



gwynfryn
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14 Nov 2004, 4:55 pm

According to the UK method, the difference is down to speech delay, as previously noted, but becomes irrelevant after early childhood, as differences usually even out.

The DSM version is so diverse as to be useless even at that level, and rumour has it AS will be phased out from the next handbook, which is a good thing; better to focus on whether you are autisitc or not. The current diagnosis doesn't even measure this, which is why so many different types of personality end up being diagnosed AS.

Autistic types on the other hand, have a distinctly different outlook to NTs with "autism like problems" (which is a bogus association) so if you pay attention, you can soon spot people who see things as you do.



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01 Jun 2013, 2:55 am

Opal, I did this for you!

TaliDaRadical wrote:
I have higher-functioning autism. It just means that you're a bit less 'NT' and more 'Autie' than AS folk.


HFA people tend to be more visual and less verbal but have fewer motor problems. Many of them have superior visual spatial skills whereas 80% of aspies meet the criteria for NLD. Of course, there are also aspies with superior visual spatial skills, and some HFA people who learn to be very verbal (although a language delay is almost required for an HFA diagnosis).



marshall
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01 Jun 2013, 6:13 am

I'm diagnosed PDD-NOS but a psychiatrist thought I was closer to HFA, but not because I had a language delay or more impairment than most people with AS. I've always had PIQ > VIQ and superior visual-spatial reasoning so supposedly I have a more "male" brain. I can write and speak articulately at times but I still have trouble verbalizing or writing down thoughts at the same speed I think at. I also feel slightly dyslexic at times, stumbling and forgetting words, forgetting spellings, or missing words when I type. I also have a more intuitive as opposed to logic-based intellect which seems unusual for people on the spectrum.

Also, I don't have as much of a problem with body language or alexithymia-like traits as other people on the spectrum. Instead I just feel generally socially and emotionally immature. Don't think I'll ever quite feel like a full adult despite being much more intelligent than the average person. It's annoying as I always feel like I'm talked down to in some way by a lot of NTs even though I'm a ton more intelligent than I let on by the way I speak or act. I don't know if this fits more with AS or HFA. I don't think it's just my imagination.

I have no clue really. I don't fit nicely into either AS or HFA.



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01 Jun 2013, 6:41 am

The only real difference between the two is that there has been language delay or language regression in HFA and none in AS. "High-functioning" is not a diagnostic term, although widely used and accepted and is very misleading.

I do not believe it is correct that people with HFA are more autistic than people with AS. Everyone is a unique individual and someone can have very strong traits but be intellectually OK as an Aspie, whereas someone could have medium traits and be intellectually OK and have had a language regression/delay as a HFA.

You will find this interesting regarding the terminology of "high-functioning":

https://www.facebook.com/autismdiscussionpage


Quote:
"Labeling - High and low functioning
We start this process when we seek a diagnosis to begin with. For parents with young children (1-3 years of age) who are seeking a diagnosis, I often recommend that they don't wait for the diagnosis. Forget about the label and begin supporting whatever developmental delays the child is showing. However, the diagnosis of "autism" doesn't say much about the degree of disability. There is too much variability in strengths and skills. When a diagnosis is not descriptive enough, people look for more specific ways to categorize the severity of disability. Not that high and low functioning are that descriptive.

In the medical field, diagnoses are categorized by symptoms and how much they impact the person's daily "functioning." It is the impact the disability has on the person's "functioning" that drives a lot of the services. For the most part, "high functioning" usually refers to good expressive speech, fair to good receptive understanding, and fair ability to function independently in their daily settings. "Lower functioning" is usually reserved to very limited verbal skills, often nonverbal, lower intellectual abilities, extreme difficulty understanding daily instructions, and needs a lot of assistance in doing their daily routine.

The confusion among parents and professionals is between "level of functioning" (intellectual ability), and "severity of autism." I know of children who are labeled "high functioning" who have severe autistic traits (very rigid/inflexible thinking, very resistant to change and uncertainty, and meltdown over simple snags in their day.) However, they are considered "high functioning" because they are very verbal, get good grades in school, and can do personal care independently. I have also met children who are considered "low functioning" because they are nonverbal, have difficulty with performing personal care, and difficulty with academics, but who's autism traits are less severe; more flexible in their thinking, handle daily transitions easier, can reference others better, and have fewer meltdowns. So, level of functioning doesn't also correlate with the severity of the autism. Just because a child is labeled “high functioning”, doesn’t mean he doesn’t have severe autism. Many people confuse the two, which can often exclude some from treatment, or lower the expectations for others.

We also have to be very careful when we equate “lack of verbal skills” with low intellectual abilities. The single largest characteristic used in labeling the child “high vs. low functioning” is the degree of spoken language they have. This also can be very deceiving! Although there is a strong correlation, there are many children who are nonverbal that have much higher cognitive abilities than we first recognize. They simply cannot express it in our customary ways. Once we find them a “voice”, whether through pictures, written words, manual signs, etc, we find they have much stronger cognitive skills, than we had anticipated. It isn’t until we find the right medium of expression do we begin to understand what they truly know. So, our best bet is to always assume “competence” to learn, if the right supports and teaching style can be identified. Don’t get too hung up on “low vs. high functioning” labels.

Low/High Functioning vs. Severe/Mild Autism
The last post discussed the problem with labeling someone high vs. low functioning in regards to their diagnosis. The problem comes from the fact that a person can be high functioning (verbal, good academic skills, fair to good personal care), but have moderate to severe autism (rigid inflexible thinking, strong sensory issues, poor emotional regulation, delayed processing, and impaired ability to relate with others). Also, a person can be considered low functioning (poor verbal skills, limited academic skills, and minimal personal care skills) but only have mild autism (more flexibility, calmer emotionally, less sensory sensitivities, and more socially connected).

This appears contradictory at first, but when we look closer we see that these labels actually represent two different dimensions. The first, level of functioning dimension, represents the degree of cognitive functioning, or intellectual disability. The second dimension represents the severity of autism symptoms. You could look at these two dimensions as crisscrossing on perpendicular planes, with the dimension of intellectual abilities (high, moderate, low) running vertically and the dimension of autism symptoms (severe, moderate, and mild) running horizontally. The moderate levels of each dimension meeting at the intersection of the two dimensions. Consequently, you can have people who are very high functioning verbally and intellectually, and be moderately to severely impaired in autism symptoms. This can be confusing for many people who initially see the very bright, verbal child, and not initially see the severity of the autism. Or, assume that the nonverbal child is severely autistic. It is not that easy to diagnosis.

Making matters even more complicated, is the variable of verbal skills. Although verbal skills are highly correlated with intelligence, it isn’t always the case. Do not assume that the child who is nonverbal has poor intellectual abilities. There are some children who find it difficult to talk due to auditory processing and motor planning difficulties, not lack of cognitive skills. People often assume that the nonverbal child is severely impaired and place lower expectations on them. The same is also true for the child who is very verbal, but most speech is hidden in scripting and echolalia, and appears to have higher cognitive abilities then he actually may have. So, even for the two basic dimensions (intelligence and autism symptoms), the mixing in of verbal abilities can be deceiving.

The use of labels like high and low functioning, and severely and mildly impaired, are not diagnostic terms, but used more as descriptors when people try and categorize level of impairments. Hopefully the diagnostic criterion in the new DSM will be more descriptive and accurate. Until then, and probably for some time, people will be adding their own descriptive labels to the diagnoses.


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Wandering_Stranger
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01 Jun 2013, 7:07 am

I was reading something yesterday which claims HFA and AS are the same thing.



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01 Jun 2013, 7:22 am

Whirlingmind, that is quite interesting.



Tyri0n
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01 Jun 2013, 11:30 am

Good grief, guys. This is a 9-year-old thread!!



whirlingmind
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01 Jun 2013, 11:36 am

Verdandi wrote:
Whirlingmind, that is quite interesting.


It is isn't it, I only came across it recently and thought it was very astute and something clinicians need to be aware of. I've already put it to use with my daughter's paediatrician because of them diagnosing her high functioning autistic and causing confusion at the school who think she has Asperger's. I know it's really a technicality when it comes down to it but I do tend to like things correct!


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