autism and schizophrenia

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I recently bought an intresting book called the imprinted brain. It explains a new theory that autism is caused by gene deletions and schizophrenia is caused by gene duplications. some people who have both a gene deletion and a duplation on another gene have genious creativity. some of the smartest and creative people in history were probablly autistic schizophrenics. autism and schizophrenia are probablly opposite disorders and people who have both seem to have a lot of symptoms that cancel each other out making them not as impaired as you would think. you can read the author of this books blog on this topic on the following link.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... ake-genius

There's no scientific basis for any of this, and it looks like the author is a psychologist with no grasp of genetics or molecular biology.

oh---the article mentions John Nash. i'm fascinated by him. he does seem to have both ASD traits and symptoms of schizophrenia--even though they're supposed to be mutually exclusive. i have a difficult time believing he wasn't on the spectrum though (at least if "A Beautiful Mind" is accurate about many of his habits, mannerisms, etc.)

Mutually exclusive? How so? Please clarify!

according to the dsm iv, schizophrenia spectrum disorders should only be diagnosed along with an autism spectrum disorder if hallucinations and/or delusions are present. i think mental health diagnoses's will become far more accurate in the future when they find the genetic causes for genetic mental health diagnoses's and end misdiagnosing people. i have a copy of the dsm and i believe much of it is invalid because of so many overlapping symptoms and it trys to lable peoples symptoms into catagories when for example you wont find two people with autism who have the exact same kind of autism because there will be differant symptoms in each person. it is most likely that no two people have the same disorder because no two people have the exact same genes. even identical twins are slightly differant. However the genes that run in familys are probablly similar to one another but even show up manafesting as differant symptoms. autistic disorders run on my dads side of the family and i notice that even my autistic family members have differant symptoms like a second cousin who has severe tourettes where as in me i only developed minor tics and my dads brother who seems more autistic than me but doesn't have the adhd symptoms that i do, and my dad has a few aspie traits but probablly wouldnt meet the diagnostic criteria. Also psychotic disorders and other mental illnesses run on my moms side of the family but some family members developed more ocd traits, some have more bipolar traits, some developed delusions and some act narcissistic. to me it seems that theres some sort of gene on each side of my family thats causing these things but every differant person who inherits the gene develops differant symptoms from each other. I would imagine if the same inherited genes develop that differantly in even people who are related and got the same gene, that someone who isnt even related and has a completely differant gene abnormality would have a completly differant disorder even if some of the symptoms are the same.

Last edited by carltcwc on 24 Jan 2010, 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hmm, interesting. I'm currently in the process of being assessed for both (I think), so because I was hallucinating and delusional at my lowest point, I probably do have both. Bummer!

I wonder if they'll fix up these wording technicalities and overlaps with this DSM-V that I've been hearing so much about!

it doesnt matter what they diagnosis you with because your the same person you were before you get diagnosed either way. its just a stupid label. ive been diagnosed with some type of autism and some type of psychosis on the same evaluation about 7-8 times. i never understood why people get all upset when they get diagnosed with some type of mental health diagnosis. out of the disorders i seem to have the hardest thing to deal with is the hypersomnia becuase it sucks to be tired most the time and sleep too much.

There's a similar problem with Tourette's, that a diagnosis won't be given if autism is present, even though it's a distinct issue. I think a lot of clinicians ignore these mutually exclusive stipulations - I remember Tony Attwood writing that he doesn't use those criteria any more. Labels are only labels. But sometimes in getting the right support, they can be useful. For instance, I've long been diagnosed as having depression, which has it's own specific treatments. These haven't always been effective. Now they think it's bi-polar, which has a different set of treatments. So the label has changed, which is irrelevant to me as a person in one sense, but the help that's available to me as a result might be better for me.

That's interesting about Tony Atwood. I've read about his Discovery Criteria, is that what you mean? Otherwise how does he assess someone?

From an article that I've read, my knowing is that they are both opposite disorders, and that the people in the middle, are the average people who have the least problems in society. I must also add that I don't see autism as a mental illness. I see it as a difference. Autism being referred to as an illness reminds me of Rain Man.

I am surprised to finally see people expressing the view that autism and schizophrenia are "opposite disorders". I used to think that I was the only one who ever thought that. When I was first told about my Asperger, back in 1997, I was told that my thinking is very logical and literal. The moment I heard that the first thing that occured to me was "whew, I thought mental illnesses make people very IL-logical, so Asperger should be the opposite to the rest of them" (well I haven't heard of the concept that ppl with Asperger are not mentally ill, thats why I used that term in my head). Anyway, later when I started to research other mental illnesses in DSM 4 I realized that the only one that has to do with being illogical is schizophrenia. So then I concluded that Asperger is opposite to schizophrenia.

But then came a surprise, I found out that starting from the first time autism was invented in the beginning of 20 century, all the way through 60-s, it was considered to be related to schizophrenia! For a very long time I couldn't understand how could they have possibly say they are related if they are opposite disorders? Then of course I read that this relation was later proven wrong and common consensus is that there is none. But still I NEVER HEARD before someone other than myself express the view that they are OPPOSITE. This is the first time I read it. When was this view first invented?

For me autism is not a disorder, it is a difference. A way of being.

I have many friends labeled skitz or BP and for them too it is a way of being............hey, lets all move beyond 'disorder' and 'difference' and find unity in being 'differently' human.

chris

(in response to earlier posts---i apologize for saying they were supposed to be mutually exclusive. i got that impression from something i read, and i think i must have been mistaken.)


i think so too (about disorder, etc.) look at John Nash, for instance. what a contribution he made, and such an amazing soul too. when i'm looking for inspiration about life---his life is one of the ones i focus on.

(and i think too there's something very AS about the way he dealt with his psychosis. he analyzed his delusions for logical inconsistencies. for some reason, it makes me smile.

i wonder too about overlap. i was diagnosed as schizotypal pd (before NLD was on the map--it still isn't really, in terms of the DSM. but apparently will be included in the next one.). but if you look at the traits of NLD, they're such similar "syndromes" (including the tendency towards odd beliefs.) it's just that NLD takes into account the learning differences---the strengths in one direction (verbal skills), the challenges in another direction (in my case--virtually everything else.

NLD is so similar to AS in so many ways, and i wonder why it isn't included in the spectrum. i don't think there's such a strong distinction between any of these spectrums as it first seems (including the "NT spectrum.")

i like the article. it makes things less "black or white" in terms of schizophrenia spectrum and autism spectrum.

it is not unheard of for people on the spectrum to have episodes of psychosis in adolescence and early adulthood.

Hopefully, they'll conclude that and tell me it'll all go away soon. Yeah, I know, mustn't be ashamed of having a mental illness, etc. etc...but I really do NOT like having psychotic episodes! They're very stressful!

I have had psychotic episodes in my life. They are not fun, and during those times I don't believe I am psychotic its just what the docs tell me. A lot of the time I ain't believe them because I strongly believe in my beliefs but they say they are delusions. How can they disprove what I am thinking anyways? Literally the second I say something they automatically say, "its not based in reality." They think they know all! I don't really hear voices except hearing my name being called a lot and some random noises but that ain't qualify as hearing voices according to my knowledge. I mean realistically, how can you prove that I am not getting thoughts from the gov or aliens? How can you prove that I don't influence things since I DO influence things with my thoughts? I hate thinking that I am being watched all the time but everything seems to prove what I think but I don't act on things and act all scared of things because you can't change it anyways. There ain't nothing I can do about it. Pills ain't do much for my thoughts but the scariest psychotic episode took place when I was around 12-13 years young. I have been weird (and other people might even call that psychotic since the weirdness is WAY out there and not the typical weird that autistics have even though I have that as well) since birth and never normal. I don't even know what normal is because of it, but in public I don't appear mentally ill or talking to imaginary voices or people. The other scary psychotic episode is when I had a bad reaction to Moban, instead of reducing the symptoms it increased it dramatically.