Living and lying

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Acting a part, a role is what we suffer for. We would like to be one thing with what we say and do, not feel lacerated, torn apart for the life we lead. I often think of that character in Bergman’s “Persona”, played by Liv Ullmann, who refuses to speak. But sometimes I realize also how much acting, insincerity and outright lying is around us. Politicians, salesmen, advertisers, spin doctors make of lying a profession. Anybody who is in a competitive career has to do a lot of performing, talking prudentially, staying silent when convenient, trying to please. They don’t appear to suffer as we suffer for that. It’s not only what they say, but sometimes all they do that is a big lie. A disaffected wife or husband has to feign affection all day long, sometimes for years. How can they manage? Animals don’t lie, and for this reason we love them more the humans.

While they pay lip service to honesty they are all hipocrites who do it themselves compulsively and secretly revere and envy people with a talent for it.

lying is a part of being 'human' unfortunatly. but also fortunatly. can you imagine a world full of completly honest people. just saying whatever came to mind all the time, without filter. maybe you think it would be some kind of 'Utopia' but i disagree. It is impolite to speak 'truth' all the time. People wouldn't be able to bear one another for too long without the 'filtering' of thoughts. Imagine walking down the road, or in a crowded city, and hearing everything everyone was thinking all the time. you would go crazy. When you are having a 'bad' day and someone who cares about you asks you what is wrong and wants to help you, keep in mind that they have thier own problems and thoughts which might be conflicting to your own. Or you are asked by someone, you care about, how they look. and that person looks bad, or overweight, or etc. Do you just tell them the 'truth'? or do you find 'creative' ways of filtering your thoughts to accomodate thier feelings better? These, i suppose are considered, white lies. And the degree or severity of other lies are undoubtedly worse, such as the examples aforementioned. Emotions, which apparently, some people on this forum, seem to think are alien to them, are part of everyday living. Ups and downs. To not FEEL is to be alien to your own self. I sincerely doubt anyone on this site is completely removed from what they 'feel'. If they truly were, then they wouldn't come on here to discuss/complain about it. Maybe the problem with the AS mind/heart is more concerned with the depths of emotions felt. Perhaps the AS community has 'shallow hearts'.
not trying to nitpick the topic. but to shed light on the necessity of lies in life.
they are essential to growth/development of the human mind.

But in a world where people dont lie you become conditioned to be capable of accepting the real opinions of others.

What purpose do white lies serve? They are simple manipulations where you refrain from enlightening the other for your own selfish benefit.

For example you mentioned someone asking how they looked. If the dress they are wearing doesnt suit them and/or would end up causing the person embarassment isnt lieing to them a worse crime than hurting their feelings a little by telling them the truth?

To me at least lieing is always the greater of the two evils.

To purposely mislead someone is to manipulate them out of selfishness no matter how you try to justify it.

The ends never justify the means.

You beleive telling the truth would lead to conflict while I believe that almost all conflict is the result of discovered deception.

I agree with you to a major degree. But what happens when people don't lie at all? How does progress get made? Online forums, are ONE thing for conversation/exchange of ideas, at least it appears that in places such at this, we can communicate honestly, w/out the need for interface. THAT changes everything. Speaking or verbally/physically communicating with people is an entirely different story. When you are going to a job interview, how do you dress? Should you be honest about yourself, and dress according to how you feel? Isn't THAT what 'honesty' is anyway? Are Facts honest? What distinguishes the two from each other? Facts vs. Feeling. It is expected of people in society to carry and conduct themselves a certain way. At least superficially speaking, and if you fall outside of those norms, you are rendered as "different", and in this society there is a mixed opinion regarding the value of differences. I AGREE that many figureheads and celebrities etc are hippocrites. But these people are the ones who are setting the standards for everyone else to follow. IF it became 'cool' for people to be 'ret*d' or 'as' or whatever the hell else, people would do it. The trends in society typically dominate the collective interests of them as a whole. i'm going off on a tangent here. but you get my point. The problem with people with special needs or interests to NT's is the fact or the statistics proven that they cannot care for themselves. These 'special needs' individuals therefore become a burden. sorry to say that, but it is somewhat accurate. Every person is entitled to live whatever life they want to live, so long as they can pay thier dues, contribute and generally take care of themselves. If you are incapable of doing such things then you are considered a social drain or burden on society. If you are being 'taken care of' then you are not an 'independent' person. This is where the real problem persists for many people considered disabled on this and similar forums.

i'm not nt, but not necessarily as either.
there is some type of imbalance though.

oh yeah, what were we talking about? Lies. well, they are kinda necessary. imo.

Blakdove

The examples you make are cases of white lies. But most professions, and particularly the profession of politicians, advertisers, salesmen, copywriters (have a look at books’ blurbs) are sometimes made of lies, sometimes or of compromises with truth and sincerity. As for white lies I agree to a point. When I feel rotten and someone who meets me says “You have a good look!” I feel only irritated even if I don’t say it (another inevitable compromise). In the families, which should be founded of frankness and transparency, behaviours are often dictated and governed by secrets about terrible happenings (suicides, betrayals). White lies should be only saying you have a headache when you are not keen to go to a party.

Lying is necessary? Its only necessary when you are insecure and insecurity is NOT a good thing. As far as lying goes in society right now? You are right, lying IS necessary but only NOW. If we lived in a world that wasnt insecure then we wouldnt need this discussion

White lies accompany insecurity. Lies are never the "problem" its only the result of one

I agree in an NT world we must lie. But I believe Aspies can tell the truth to each other

In the families, which should be founded of frankness and transparency, behaviours are often dictated and governed by secrets about terrible happenings (suicides, betrayals). White lies should be only saying you have a headache when you are not keen to go to a party.[/quote]

what exactly do you mean by this? ^^^^ is this within your own family? or families in general? be more specific.

Actually, just wanted to point out to the OP that animals can lie. Chimps are quite good at it, at least in comparison to other animals.
we now return you to the thread in progress

The most common white lie is this:

"How are you?"

"Fine."

Imagine a world where everyone stopped to explain what was going on in their lives? Nothing would ever get done, or even started!

Personally, I hate that question. My room mate would ask me EVERY fricken day! He knew damned well what I was going to say!

"Fine."

So why ask? Arg!

"How are you?"

"How am I what? Be specific, man."

i didn't mean to go off on some crazy tangent. I was just explaining some of the common problems that people face in day to day living. The polite "how are you?" for example. I actually appreciate politeness. It's manners. It's having etiquette. In the social arena, this is something that is necessary. I wouldn't like it if people always showed thier emotions. Even if it IS impossible for some with AS to comprehend thier intracacies. I am almost finished reading The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nite-time. Really good book. i can relate to some of the instances, but not most. Looking at signs and reading them in uncomfortable, peopled situations. Not always making the best eye-contact. Avoiding small-talk whenever possible. Unless it's about something i'm well versed in, or interested in. But, as mentioned earlier, it's necessary in the society in which we live, that lying is involved. I won't indulge in discussing this any further. I'm just seeking some good input to argue my point otherwise.

My dog can lie convincingly about whether he has something in his mouth. He can lie *very* convincingly about whether he has swallowed a pill. And he lies about whether there's somebody at the door.

Back to humans. Here's my life:

Stage 1 - Never lie.
Stage 2 - Never lie except for specified lies.
Stage 3 - Never lie to your mother, and even then, make sure nobody's around.
Stage 4 - Perceive that everybody's lying.
Stage 5 - Try to learn an 'obvious' social skill - lying.
Stage 6 - Get it all wrong.
Stage 7 - Misunderstand why and keep trying.
Stage 8 - Have a terrible reputation and don't know why.
Stage 9 - Discover I have AS and figure out what the problem is.

And *that* is something I've been trying to tell people for so long - but I think only somebody with AS could ever understand it.

There are white lies, but what colour are 'good' lies?