anyone familiar with both Autism and Schizophrenia?

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I'm just curious if anyone has knowledge on the relation between the two, if there is one.

My father had schizophrenia - I'm not sure about the timeline of how it developed for him because I am not in contact with him and I don't talk with my mother about it. I do know that he became highly delusional along typical lines (delusions of grandeur, persecution,etc) and became really unstable and dangerous. I wasn't around much when this was happening, my knowledge and memories of him are from earlier before things took this turn. What I remember of him is that he was extremely educated and intelligent, narcissistic, and emotionally unstable and unpredictable. My mother has said (since my son's autism diagnosis), that maybe my dad had some autistic traits. But besides being him highly intelligent, suffering from anxiety, and obsessiveness, I don't really see or remember that side of him, I guess it's possible though.

Anyway, I read somewhere (I wish I knew where!) a while ago that autism and schizophrenia are "two sides of the same coin" and I've always remembered this, thinking of my father and wondering about the genetics of it all.
I'm constantly vigilant with my own mental health because I find I have so much in common with my dad. During the sleep deprivation periods when dealing with my newborn children (and my autistic son who has trouble sleeping) I have had auditory hallucinations that occur as voices when there is very loud white noise (both my kids need this to sleep). That freaked me out a lot and I thought for sure I was going crazy. But when the sleep deprivation went away and I wasn't around the white noise, the auditory hallucinations also went away. I don't have any delusions that I'm aware of either (I guess one wouldn't be aware ). I have been diagnosed with depression and social/general anxiety over the years- I've dealt with these both with and without meds... to varying degrees of success. I have a lot of autistic traits I think, but am undiagnosed.

I was googling looking for info about my son's speech patterns (nonsense speech, odd/irrational statements) and symptoms of early schizophrenia came up in the search.

"The most common early warning signs of schizophrenia include:

Social withdrawal
Hostility or suspiciousness
Deterioration of personal hygiene
Flat, expressionless gaze
Inability to cry or express joy
Inappropriate laughter or crying
Depression
Oversleeping or insomnia
Odd or irrational statements
Forgetful; unable to concentrate
Extreme reaction to criticism
Strange use of words or way of speaking" (from http://www.helpguide.org/articles/schiz ... causes.htm)

So many of these symptoms do sound like symptoms of autism, at least in how it presents in my son.

Does anyone have any knowledge about this? Is it possible that my son's autism is actually early schizophrenia? Are autism and schizophrenia really that closely related?
Or...any other thoughts or discussion about this is welcome here.

I think autistics don't usually have delusions/hallucinations or too many problems staying on topic (especially when the topic is their special interest).
Also note that many autistics are nonverbal, so if there's a correlation between schizophrenia and autism, it would be on the mild end of the spectrum.
But I can see where you're coming from. A lot of the "early warning signs" you've suggested apply to me to some degree and many symptoms of the two conditions are similar.

Schizophrenia is one of my OCD obsessions because that list of symptoms looks similar to autism, depression, social anxiety and OCD. I've brought this worry up with numerous psychiatrists. It's one of those illnesses that scares me a lot. Researching about it hasn't helped or seeking reassurance. Worrying and monitoring your mental health will not stop you from developing a condition.

My father was paranoid and manic at times but undiagnosed so that's another thing.

I have been diagnosed with mild schizophrenia. Mainly in the form of auditory hallucinations. Totally separate dx from my autism far as I know.

I've worried about schizophrenia too, but you can't go after every possible label and worrying about them becomes too much.

I think a key with autism is if you can find a way to make the world make sense and manageable, things get better. That's what I try to focus on.....there's a lot you can do for your child and way too much overlap to clearly separate out which is what IMO unless you're maybe a very specialized researcher and even then, I'd worry about preconceived ideas they might have.

I think trying to fit into a crazy seeming world can make people on the spectrum overwhelmed, a bit paranoid, and have worse communication, so just for me, this is something I decided was toxic to have on my mind. Makes me confused which is paralyzing.

Autism cannot be early schizophrenia. People on the spectrum can develop schizophrenia but they are separate. If a person has autism they have autism and while misdiagnosis is possible, I think it is more commonly in the other direction. And disorganization can occur if you have autism from autism because ADHD is common, and because if you aren't easily understood, it appears disorganized for example when I leave out or use an incorrect pronoun people experience me as disorganized. The danger to me is if a child is really trying to communicate but struggling as with autism they might need more focus on making sense of what they are saying, and while I am not sure what would be best for a person with schizophrenia, I have the impression refocusing on other things for a person with schizophrenia rather than scaffolding their own efforts as for a person with autism might be more productive. Hope some of this makes sense! I tried to edit but it was hard to get across what I am trying to say which is they seem similar, but in a way I think autism starts out seeing a tiny corner of the world or the whole world way too clearly and intensely and so much you miss a lot and it looks distorted to others, schizophrenia starts out seeing something in a distorted way and that gets embroidered on too. So they look alike and might be related, but I think they are fundamentally different. I am not sure how but I think they are. But you can look either depending on the point of view of the observer.

See your child in the way that helps him most OP. I would not focus on what label is correct, just on what helps you help him. I think usually that will be autism. You could tell us more specifics of you like, but in terms of what you do, getting supports, and schools understanding, that's my guess what will help the most. Also a lot of seeming paranoia can be driven by sensory overstimulation and confusion about social interactions as well as subtle bullying. And withdrawal is a result of becoming overwhelmed often. Communication gets worse under stress too.

I work with people who have schizophrenia and the negative symptoms look like AS many times. Executive functioning problems, lack of social skills, little desire to be social, depression. I can relate to a lot of the schizophrenic people I work with because of these issues even though I don't hallucinate or have delusions.

Thanks for the replies. It is interesting how the "negative" symptoms are so similar. I've bookmarked some reading on this after googling, but no time to read today.
I think my curiosity and concern are due to the genetic predisposition both I and my son would have.

To the poster who said "see your child in the way that helps him most" - thanks, this is good advice. I totally agree, labels are not of vast importance. I'm always on a quest for more understanding of both myself and my kids no matter what labels we've been given.

I can't provide a citation right now, but in the past 2 or 3 years, the genetics of mental health seems to find that certain mental illnesses cluster together in families - autism, depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar, schizophrenia. It's likely that whatever the cause, certain pathways lead to disorders in function in the brain.

So what?

I think the easiest way to rule out autism is if those symptoms were not present in childhood.

My aunt has schizophrenia but I don't have a lot of knowledge about it but another thing they have in common is they have a hard time with change and can't be in situations where things are always changing so my aunt never went to family reunions or any family things because of lot of change. So she probably needs a familiar environment. I wanted to go see her when I was in Wisconsin but I hear from my mother you can't see her alone, you need to go with her parents to go see her or she won't know you. I don't think she would recognize me because last time she saw me I was a little girl and now I am grown. She also has a lot of delusions and lives in a group home with other schizophrenics. She used to not be this bad but she would quit taking her medicine but according to my grandparents, she also had Bipolar so she was hard to medicate because medicine cannot collide so it was tough finding the right pills for her for both illnesses.


But it doesn't hurt to get tested for it. When I was in 6th grade, my speech therapist thought I might have schizophrenia than Asperger's because my mom told her she had a sister with it and the fact i told my mother that I heard voices when I meant there were lot of people talking in the room and I got overwhelmed by it so my mom was worried about me because older kids get real loud and rowdy. So the teacher told all the other staff in the school to look out for signs and she thought she was seeing the symptoms especially tangential thinking because I would get off topic and everything because I would get distracted from words due to me being visual. I read it's also a symptom of ADHD, tangential thinking. I noticed it with ASD people too which would probably explain why they can't get to the point or just give you a direct answer. Maybe they have that thinking too. One time my mom said something about dots so I started talking about braille because when she said the word dots, the image of braille jumped in my brain so I started to talk about it and she said "That is my point about how your brain works differently." I got so distracted I couldn't even understand anymore what she was saying. All I heard was the word dots and then bla bla bla and I was seeing images of braille.

I think schizophrenia can easily be ruled out of the person isn't hallucinating or having any delusions. But then again hallucinations is also a symptom of Bipolar, oh all these overlaps so it makes things so confusing and if you have both autism and schizophrenia, it makes it even harder to know what is the autism and what is the schizophrenia.

I agree with everyone else about this.

It's hard to sometimes differentiate between different conditions, but there are differences: you just have to look for them and read up on them to understand them better. Many conditions from NPD to OCPD to Bipolar to Schizoid to Schizophrenia can appear to look and sound like Autism. I often find that to differentiate between them you have to look at the why behind the obvious outward symptoms. For example, two children may be scratching at something. When you ask those children why they are scratching, you may get two very different answers. In the case of a child with schizophrenia it may be that they could be paranoid about something very irrational (aliens are coming to get them for example), in the case of a child with OCD it could be because it needs to be perfect or "just right", in the case of a child with autism it's usually a soothing thing or a way to block things out and focus.

However, people on the spectrum are well known to have comorbidities, so a child can have both autism and schizophrenia.

In the end you know your son best, so I'm sure you will come to the right conclusions soon Either way, he will be fine because he has a mum that obviously cares very much for his well being.

I don't know why, but I've never really related the two. It's not denial or anything, I'm actually pretty neutral about it. I've only ever heard of the correlation when it's been mentioned on this forum.

Looking at the symptoms, I get that there are various ways in which they present the same way (ugh, such bad grammar, can't think how to fix that right now, it's late), but, I don't know...similar or even directly matching "symptoms" can be caused by vastly different issues/conditions/states of being. For example, and this is going to be oversimplification, but: an inability to walk could be caused by paralysis due to an accident, a virus that is attacking the nerves, an autoimmune issue, Parkinson's disease, stroke, and so on.

I think it's the fact that it's a collection of symptoms that present the same way that may make some people really equate the two. But IMO it's just that: they're presenting similarly. What's causing that presentation (or those presentations) can be two very different things. If I stumble a lot, have issues with drooling, experience periods of incontinence and have periods of forgetfulness, as well as a stiff, irregular gait and possibly even periods of entire inability to walk or stand at all, have I had a stroke, or do I have Parkinson's disease? Why do these present similarly? Well, for a lot of reasons, but primarily because: they're brain issues. The cause is very different. The presentation - because the brain and CNS control all those things - can look remarkably the same.

I could be wrong, perhaps in this cause - autism and schizophrenia - it is a very fine line, both in cause and presentation...who knows.

But two specific things, hallucination and paranoia, seem to me to be very specific to schizophrenia but by no means have to be a part of autism. In fact, both would be comorbidities AFAIK, and a separate cause would be looked for them (hallucination and paranoia are nowhere in the DSMV criteria for ASD, I don't think). I think those two issues are pretty significant and are real game-changers when making the comparison.

I don't really have a horse in this race, if it turns out that the two are part of the same spectrum or something like that, it won't change the fact that I function, that I'm odd and that I don't have hallucinations and am not paranoid. So the actual label itself wouldn't change anything for me, not even from an emotional standpoint/how I see myself. And FWIW, I wouldn't be any too sad to see some of the stigma and fear attached to schizophrenia let up a little, just as I'm not sad to see some of the stigma lift from ASD.

The reason some people can get confused between the two is that when a child is experiencing auditory hallucinations they could also be experiencing a sensory sensitivity. Children may also say "I'm an alien" when they have autism, but this can be misconstrued as being schizophrenic when they are trying to say they're different. I have no examples at present, but do know of people that have been mistaken to be schizophrenic and ended up being autistic (especially 20 years ago).

From Wikipedia:

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder often characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to recognize what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, auditory hallucinations, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and lack of motivation. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person's reported experiences."

Social behavior can be abnormal in both. Some children that have autism can be so wrapped up in imaginary play that the lines between reality and imagination blur or they talk about their imaginative play and dreams as if they are real. They may know certain things aren't really real, but mum and dad don't know they know that and neither do the psych they're often seeing.

Oh and there are some schizophrenic people that aren't paranoid - they are rare, but they exist. These are the people that generally think they are sent on missions from God...

My first boyfriend probably had schizophrenia according to my mother. He didn't hallucinate nor was he delusional, his thinking was way out there and the way he talked and said things and the way he moved his hands according to her. I remember things he would tell me wouldn't make sense and it was like he lived in a fantasy world but he actually believed it which is what made him a schizophrenic. If not schizophrenia, there is schizotypical personality disorder and he seemed paranoid at times and I also think he may have had OCD because he always worried about stuff such as identity theft so he was calling the bank every twenty minutes to make sure his money was still there and he always worried about going over drawn so he had to keep a certain even balance in his account. But my mom knew he had more than ADHD because it didn't explain all his problems he had. ADHD was just part of one problem he had. I also thought he had aspie traits because we seemed a like and we both had anxiety and he also worried a lot like me but in other things and he also took things literal and he was also an outcast and teased in school. He also had really good eye sight. He was also socially ret*d. But both my parents thought he was nuts.

That basically includes alot of people, for example all who judge someone in the name of God, art, money or whatever...

People abuse labels and what better label than a lunatic when in need of labeling someone as mentally incapable and irrational. E.g. women who publicly struggled for female suffrage had of course hysteria or some other mental condition instead of second-class citizenship. Who has the power, who has the gun, who has the lawyer? - sadly that's what it's too often all about.

I see that many LFA kids get these schizophrenia labels totally unjustified. What is even worse is that they get medicated accordingly.

How would being nonverbal make you any less likely to experience hallucinations or delusions?

I imagine something like schizophrenia would be impossible to diagnose in a person with little/no verbal, written, or signed language -- but that doesn't mean a person with little/no verbal, written or signed language couldn't have schizophrenia.

On a different note:

It has always bothered me how many people assume (not saying the OP or anyone else here is doing this) that nonsense/disorganized speech automatically means nonsense/disorganized thoughts. Sometimes it just means your language and communication/social skills suck so badly that you often can't figure out how to communicate things using words, and/or that you lack full understanding (you may have partial/patchy/context-specific understanding) of what words are for and the mechanics of using them in some/all contexts .