My therapist gave me dangerous advice about dating. Why?

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When I was in early high school, I was seeing a therapist. For a point of reference, she's the same person who grilled me about feelings. At one point, our conversations went in the directions of dating. Specifically, how to navigate the high school romantic world, which included how to get dates. In a nutshell, she said that a way to find out if a girl is interested is by asking her on a date. Fair enough, I suppose. By then, I already had the "no means no" rule down cold! Not just for sex, but also for asking girls on dates.

At one point, she decides to tell me: "'Yes' and 'no' aren't black and white. A girl will answer you by how she feels at the moment. She could say 'no' one time, but she could say 'yes' another time." Somehow, my BS detector went off like an air raid siren, and I knew there's no way that could be true. I faked a smile, thanked her, and changed the topic.

Now, WHY would my therapist give me such a dangerous advice, my literal thinking nonewithstanding? Didn't she, as a woman herself, realize that women decide whether or not they like a man within 5 minutes of meeting him? Didn't she realize that lack of attraction is almost always permanent? Didn't she also realize that she could have put me in harm's way, if I decided to take her advice and keep trying, in hopes of "another time"? I get it: she's not supposed to talk about the harsh truth of the dating world. But the advice she gave was much worse.

Thoughts?

You are running on a couple of false assumptions here.

1) False assumption 1 is that women decide who they like and don't like within 5 minutes of meeting them. This is false. While first impressions are very important, there is plenty of room to change that opinion later. Also, all women are different. Some women like to date guys who are "hot" in a traditional sense and will decide if you are hot enough right away. Other women value different traits in men, like intellegance and sense of humor. They will take longer to decide if they like you.

2) False assumption 2 is that attraction is permanent. Good gosh! This is so very false. Even people who love each other very much and have been happily married for years have times when they don't find their partner attractive. Its even stronger with teenagers. All teens experiment with how they want to act, who they want to date, and what kind of person they want to be. That's totally normal. A girl who isn't into your type of guy might be totally into it the next week. Because they do change. Most people find that their attractions change over time.

Now, as for your sense of danger in being told these things, I think you have a point. Asking a girl out repeatedly after they said no is a good way to get labeled a stalker. It works in the movies. It does not work in real life. I really commend you on your understanding that consent is important. You're not going to win any hearts by being a jerk.

It is possible to change a woman's mind about whether she would like to date you. Its also possible to ask her on a date again without being seen as a jerk. BUT, these things take social know-how. You have to watch their body language. Women will tell you when they are interested in you. There's a whole world of books and stuff about flirting body language that you can read on the subject. If she's flirting, you have a green light to try again. If she has a long conversation with you, its also an OK time to ask if she might be interested in doing something more date like.

As for how to change her mind about you, that depends on the situation. One thing a lot (not all, but a lot) of Aspie men don't get is grooming. So, if you like a girl and she doesn't respond, trying upping your grooming. (always bathing, wearing clean and mended clothing, getting a hair cut and a shave, and brushing your teeth go a long way. Also, don't wear tons of smelly stuff like cologne or body spray. Most women don't want to smell all that. It just smells like you are trying to cover something up.)

It can also change a woman's opinion of you if you are consistently kind and courteous towards her. Women notice these things. Also, take an interest in the things she likes and let her know that you appreciate them. You can do all of these things without getting into the danger zone of being called a stalker.

Women don't like to date losers.

The quickest way to change a yes to a no is to get turned down by other women. So, if you start off by asking out the hottest women and work your way down, you are pretty much insuring that you will be branded a creep and not get any dates.

https://plus.maths.org/content/if-we-all-go-blonde

I once asked my sociable brother how my teen nephew should ask a girl for a date. He said this:

- Go to the same things she does, even just cafeteria, so she knows who you are.

- Accidentally on purpose run into her when she's carrying something (books, groceries, anything), "Hi, how are you, can I help you with that?" This is easier if she's alone.

Hint: Volunteer info and ask about her take on it.
"We went camping, do you like that sort of thing?"

Other hint: tell a short story about some awful or embarrassing or just a neat thing somebody she doesn't know did. Be prepared with a few of those ready. Every family has some. Even like the time I walked the dog and found $5 on the sidewalk. Maybe fun at Customs.

The crux of the matter:
"My friend saw <current movie>. Have you seen it? Would you like to? How about <when>?"

What I've typed sounds like a robot talking. Throw in idle talk and be relaxed.

If she won't tell you about her weekend, her family, or what movies she likes, her answer will be no, so just smile and part ways.

Hope this helps, I can't give you my own advice because I'm female, and Mom taught me that if I'm carrying something, throw it on the floor. If the guy picks it up, he likes you.

Interesting! This advice always struck me as highly outdated, like from the 80's at the latest. I've seen it quite a few teenage sitcoms and movies like "Lucas" back when I was in high school. So it's surprising to see your teenage nephew suggesting it, considering how it's a fast track to a stalking charge nowadays. Still, repeatedly asking a girl out in hopes of "another time" is very creepy. I don't know if that's what my therapist meant, but I'm glad I saw it as a lie and didn't follow it.

There was, however, something else she said: "You might not find a girlfriend in high school. But you'll find one in college. And she'll be a really great one." Ha! Four years later, my first girlfriend actually was in college, but man oh man, was she unattractive and boring to be around. She was not "great" by any stretch of imagination.

The suggestion was from my middle-aged brother to my teenage nephew.

If she is known to him and he only asks once, that is not stalking.

Out-dated? Please, give me an example of a current one.

I don't think your therapist meant any harm. He was talking about how "persistence" pays off. But "persistence" doesn't pay off these days, and perhaps your therapist didn't understand modern dating.

Back when I was a kid, it wasn't really considered "stalking" if you asked a girl out more than once. It was considered a truism that girls, sometimes, want a guy to ask a few times before there's a "yes" answer.

I guess I was lucky that I wasn't the "persistent" type LOL.

Oh! I thought you were talking about repeated asking, like how I understood my therapist. In your case, you're totally right. Even HR departments state that asking someone to lunch once and only once doesn't constitute sexual harassment.

As for current date request methods, damn if I know! I haven't had a relationship in years. I went on a number of casual dates with women I met through an offline dating service, and felt mildly relieved when things didn't pan out. Because I'm at a point where I want nothing to do with long-term relationships, while most women my age (33) want marriage and babies. So I only pursue women my age for platonic friendships and partner dancing, which are a whole different animal.

My personal experience is that no isn't necessarily absolute at all. My first serious girlfriend (early 1970s) told me that she would have called off our first date if a couple she knew hadn't happened to put in a good word for me. We went on to have a long relationship. Another one (early 1980s) told me it wasn't appropriate for us to pair up because we were working together. Again, we went on to have a long relationship. Another (mid-1980s) said we shouldn't sleep together on the very night we began sleeping together . Next one (late 1980s) insisted that she couldn't offer me a proper commitment, but later changed her mind. In the 1990s one suddenly cut off all communication with me after our first meeting, and then got in touch after a few weeks and we began a relationship which lasted a few months, and another one did a similar thing, I asked to see her again after our first date, she said she was busy, and then became very hard to reach, putting a number of obstacles in my way, but eventually came back and we were together for a few months. And again around 2011 a lady wouldn't have anything to do with me after initially showing some interest, blowing hot and cold on me for a few months before practically insisting that we began a proper romance, which we then did.

Maybe it's dying out these days, but somehow I doubt it. I'd have much preferred it if they'd said "maybe." I don't know why they said no when it turned out not to be the truth. I've heard various reasons - it's for the "thrill of the chase," it makes the lady feel in control, it filters out the sexual predators and selects for the men who are serious and strong of heart, it stops her looking cheap and easy, it dupes him into thinking he's in control (when he thinks he's won her with his pick-up artistry), it gets her more time to evaluate him. But I never got a straight answer from the women concerned when I asked them after the relationship was under way. Mostly they were uncomfortable with the question.

I don't know why you think it's dangerous advice that girls might not mean no when they say it, as long as you don't just wade in as if they've just actually said yes. Of course you have to respect the answer "no," especially if it's about having sex. When I was first rejected for dates I used to believe it 100% and just get out of the way and feel thoroughly rejected, but later I'd take them at their word but stay friendly and open to them changing their minds or coming clean about how they really felt, whichever it was. And of course it allowed me to look for other women if I wanted to, because if a woman says no, she can hardly complain if the man takes her at her word and moves on. But I began to notice signs of the unreliability of their apparent rejection - they'd be more warm and friendly towards me than might be expected from somebody who wasn't attracted. On the other hand, though I once hoped that I'd end up with a better partner (more discerning and appreciative that I'd proved my strength, more loyal and harder for other men to take away from me), that didn't actually happen. So perhaps autistic men are better off avoiding anybody who does such things, and put their energy into finding Aspie girls with a good grounding in "pathological honesty" as the NTs call it.

Those are the only reasons you can think of that she might have said no, when she was really into it? Here are some options: She really meant no, but she changed her mind. She didn't mean no-forever. She just meant no-right-now and later was, well... later, so later she said yes. She meant no, until you fulfilled a hidden requirement of her's and then it was yes. She said no as a test as to whether you intended to be trust-worthy, and once you did, she changed her mind to a yes. (Those last two are kind of the same.)

Women are made to feel bad about sex and dating no matter what they do, so questioning why they say no could make them feel shame. If they say yes, they are a slut. If they say no, they are cold and bitchy. If they want to date you, they feel pressure to have sex, even if you don't do the pressuring, its coming from TV and their friends. If you ask them about saying no right before they actually say yes, you are likely to cause them to feel shame, even if you didn't meant to be shaming, just curious.

Not particularly, my main point was that it happens. The reasons I cited were just a bonus.

Sounds plausible. I can think of one case where the lady's date with a rival didn't work out.

Yes, though superficially it would seem odd not to actually say "not right now" or otherwise suggest that the rejection wasn't set in stone forever. After all, a common way of gently rejecting an invitation of any kind is the "some other time perhaps" response, even when the invited one has no real intentions of accepting in the future. So to simply say "no" when a future "yes" is possible would seem to be a deliberate attempt to pretend the chances of acceptance are worse than they truly are. Though it might just be simple social clumsiness.

That's much the same as my "gets her more time to evaluate him," I think. There's an element of concealment going on there, unless the lady says something like "not unless you (x)" though I can see why hiding the nature of the conditions would be useful - once a pick up artist or a desperate suitor knows what the lady is looking for, he'll probably fake it just to seduce her, and if a relationship does begin, the bait-and-switch thing will become apparent too late. And those types of men are quite common. Nonetheless, I suspect a better response might be to indicate that there's something the suitor doesn't seem to have, without actually saying what it is. That way, the suitor is more likely to remain patient instead of taking her literally and taking his business elsewhere. I went and did exactly that once, because I took the lady at her word and thought she wasn't interested, and then when I found out I'd been wrong, I had some difficult explaining to do.


In my case I only asked them some time after the relationships had started, never before. Somehow I must have learned to avoid sharing the fact that I didn't always believe they were faking disinterest, though I didn't like having to keep quiet about it, as I've always much preferred the "cards face up on the table" thing, though it's apparently just not the done thing in the mainstream mating game. I wanted to talk it out after the relationships had begun because their show of disinterest and abandonment had hurt my feelings and I felt entitled to an explanation as to why they'd (temporarily) ruined the good thing that we'd started. Shaming wasn't my intention, I wanted reassurance that they weren't going to mysteriously lose interest again later on. I always was a stickler for candour once a serious relationship had begun (and even while selecting a partner, I saw insincerity as a serious dealbreaker), so when they gave no reason for their behaviour, I felt there may be something dodgy about them, though it was clearly pointless trying to probe the issue further with them.

Sorry. I didn't mean you were trying to shame them. I meant that they often report feeling shame. The shame comes from other social places - their family, friends, TV, etc... Shame is a very powerful emotion. People will do all sorts of things to avoid feeling it. I mentioned this because I thought that insight into women's motivation when they go back and forth between yes and no would further the conversation. I didn't mean to imply you did anything wrong.

I put it right up front and forward that I want to date someone who is able to verbalize her wants and needs clearly. I don't share my diagnosis. Personally, I think the world would be better off if everyone were this way. The practice of saying what you mean is a good one, especially in the emotionally fraught world of dating. But I don't know if I know a single 20 year old who is able to do this. 20 year olds - if you do have this skill, please come forward and prove me wrong! (Not forward to date me. I'm old. That would be gross. )

No offense taken. And I agree about shame, the human race seems to delight in filling women with it, which benefits nobody as far as I can see.


I like to think so, and I hope it turns out that the current norms in the human mating game will eventually be superceded by something more honest.

Obviously, as a woman, she knows that's nonsense. Why didn't you trust her more? That's the real question.

Has no one in this thread ever changed their mind about something?

I think somanyspoons has plenty covered, but I'd add that this was advice about women given by a woman, and I would assume that, at the very least, she had her own personal experience to draw from. I don't know where you've drawn your list of things about (abstract) women this (concrete, particular) woman should apparently know/understand, but at best it seems to me a bit like getting exasperated because the people in a room all happen to be above average height.

I think finding someone unnattractive/actively offputting could be permanent (or a lot harder to shift), but that's not the same as a (initial) lack of attraction. I've no idea what to make of that 5 minutes thing.

I do agree that, assuming she knew you had AS, she should have taken more care when dealing with the nuances and subtleties of interpersonal/romantic interest (which is something neurotypicals have trouble enough navigating, let alone those of us on the spectrum). I think role play and discussion of such can be helpful in those areas, rather than simply imparting information which can confuse.

It already exists; it existed since the dawn of civilization. I've been using "something more honest" since I was 22. I just have to limit it once every 2 or 3 months, because it costs $300 an hour. But with my declining sex drive after age 30, it's sufficient.

It's not nonsense. Women just don't always act on their decision within 5 minutes. Why didn't trust my therapist more? She frequently grilled me about my "feelings", and when I answered her, she'd say: "That's not how you really felt. Try again." So it was hard to trust someone who thinks she knows my feelings better than me.

In my case, girls found me actively offputting, so my "danger!" reaction was totally right. In fact, one girl described me as "gross", and I always showered daily. Another said I had "creepy eyes". So clearly, it had to do with how my face looked. Given these two girls' reactions, asking someone out more than once could result in being charged with stalking, for all I know.