Super Important Revelation Regarding the Nature of WP.net

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Okay, as plenty of people know, I'm new here. Diagnosed around 4 weeks ago, I'm still wet behind the ears as far as the truth and fiction of Asperger's Reference books go.

In every piece of literature I've come across, one of the key social problems Aspies face is the inability to summarily "put themselves in other people's shoes." Often called the Theory of Mind, this trait that we are believed to lack so heavily contributes to the further description that we have no empathy: a description that puts us in the public eye's on the same level as a robot, or Hitler.

So the irony I've observed is that we're trying to do just that on this site between our fellow Aspies. Besides talking about the mundane, we (I frequently) both ask and try to solve social problems. But theoretically isn't our inability to relate to others part of the reason we have social problems in the first place...?

This amused me to no end, and I'd like to hear the community nice and loud on this one. Does the existence and popularity of this site at least dent the credibility of the diagnostic trait regarding the lack of empathy?

I'm in no way trying to troll semantics or minimize our misfortunes. I either want to get a more accurate description of the particular empathy we lack, or get people to realize how amusing this possible misconception is. The credibility and usefulness of this site stands for itself, so one of the aforementioned must be flawed.

(I have kept this carefully pun and rhyme free, because such a topic needs no convoluting to incite entertainment.)

Hitler?

This is a great question. I'm not at all convinced that, in order to have AS, you have to lack empathy altogether. I'm definitely not an expert on AS, but I am a pretty reliable expert when it comes to my own experiences. I know that I have empathy for those who are suffering (Aspie and NT alike). I think the problem is that I sometimes express that empathy in inappropriate ways, or in some situations fail to express it at all (perhaps out of fear of saying or doing the wrong thing). I suspect that is the case for quite a few Aspies - the problem isn't a lack of empathy; the problem lies in the "correct" expression of that empathy.

Then again, I've seen some people I would swear are Aspies who really don't seem to have the capacity for empathy. My guess is that AS itself encompasses a pretty broad spectrum. Makes sense - we all know that not all NT's act and think alike. Why should we, just because we share a label?

And maybe it's easier for us to show "empathy" for each other here because it's not "empathy," but "sympathy" - we can genuinely relate to the things others are going through.

I do lack empathy in areas that have not been a vexation to me. Those areas that I have had to deal with and feel like I might be helpful, I may elect to try and be of help.

Well, if you look thru most of the posts, it's the generic 'I'm sorry' or 'I had that too'. Not many times did some step up and really FEEL. Course, it is the internet, some people may have been pushed to tears!

I honestly think that since most Aspies do seem to have more trouble relating to problems other people are having... it's like we don't expect others to do it for us. So whereas NT's would need you to really 'feel' their pain, we just kinda more want to know we are not alone.

But thats judging based on me, and well, me I'm the only Aspie I've met in RL, though BF seems very much like one too.

So it's not so much that this site tries to be a therapy forum as much as... an AA meeting. We've all got the same 'problem', no one has a perfect, blanket solution, so we go about it like Aspies. Logic. Bouncing ideas off one another. Thinking out loud. You weren't like everyone in your kindergarten, but you all could chat and play games. Well, the NT's and the lucky Aspies. But you get what I mean.

And if I didn't see your hello post, HELLO! Welcome to the Right Planet! Just a hop, skip, and a jump away from that other one! So sorry to drop you off at the wrong destination!

I don't think empathy is the most important thing you need for giving advice, any more than for being a doctor. Knowledge, experience and a capacity for logical thinking are more important. In fact, too much empathy can make you emotional and cloud your judgement, or make you tell the person in need what they want to hear, rather than what is useful and true.

I think I lack empathy to a certain degree, in that sometimes when I read another person's problem, I can see an answer clearly (or think I do) and wonder what the big deal is- I forget that if it were me in the same place, I'd be in bits. I like giving advice and being asked my opinions, but I can't put myself in 'another's shoes' without considerable effort.

omg, thank you Oblio for catching that typo. I fixed the banner, but I can't fix the pole. I never noticed because for some reason my computer accepts .com, and still sends me to this site. (I think it has to do with one of my IE addons.)

First off, I keep looking over my OP and I can find no claim to anything regarding empathy. This was just a broad question asked after reading enough dehumanizing passages to get me wondering. (I'm probably wondering so hard because I'm quite possibly in a bit of denial. I thought that I was so normal, and that everyone else was defected to some degree.)

I may have been off with the assumption that empathy was necessary for answering questions; but if I am off, then the mechanism I thought was empathy is in fact something else, and that opens up the possibility that I myself lack empathy as well.

But I take the need for empathy for granted, because logic and intellect can only take us so far when giving advice. (Yes, I know, sympathy + this site has other purposes.) Unfortunately, many of the better human actions and decisions cannot follow the better advice of such mental sciences. There is a whole section on dating/love/relationships in the forum directory. If we were to solely use the cognitive outlook and reasoning like that of a doctor, all that forum would ever hear would be "Get rid of him/her. They aren't worth it. You're more efficient alone." Though this may be true, empathy is required as a self check to decide whether or not the advice you've given plausable as well as helpful.

Well, I hope I've defended myself.

PS. Oblio: Alex may not like me for calling it WP.com, but I'd go back and edit if I were you because you've just insulted everyone. Both of our mistakes were innocent: it's not my fault that most popular sites end with dotcom, and it isnt your fault that "aspies" is one p away from "assies" (Paragraph 5).

Empathy and sympathy...whats the difference?

Thanks for the examples, Sinsboldly! I knew there was a difference but I always struggled to explain what it was. From the sounds of it though, people with AS are very empathetic, but only with other Aspies. Maybe expecting people with AS to empathise with NT emotions is as illogical as expecting us to emphathise with dogs- we've never been dogs, so how can we understand the dog condition...? (I picked dogs because I like them- I'm not implying that NTs are equivalent!).

Researchers in the autism field have definitely gotten confused about the nature of what they call 'empathy' (these days).

The ability of one non-autistic person to put themselves in another non-autistic person's shoes, is pretty much a given, since non-autistic (and otherwise non-disabled people) may vary a lot, but they tend to (especially within their own cultures) share a system of perceiving and relating to the world, and of movement patterns in general, which allows them to be able to make some basic assumptions about what the other is experiencing, even if they don't get every single little piece of it right due to individual variation they'll often get the gist.

Since there are more of them than there are autistic and other neurologically non-standard people, they have assumed a lot of things about autistic people.

They have assumed that what they experience as empathy is a trait that involves being able to take anyone's perspective in that manner, rather than simply being able to do so within their neurological type.

And they have observed that autistic people often have trouble putting ourselves in the shoes of non-autistic people.

One thing they have not noticed is that non-autistic people have just as much trouble (if not, from sheer inexperience, more) putting themselves in the shoes of autistic people.

They have also not noticed that autistic people can often put ourselves in the shoes of either other autistic people in general, or, more commonly, other autistic people within certain subtypes that are familiar to us. (Not always, but then again it's not always perfect for non-autistic people either.)

And they have not noticed that the ability to really learn to put oneself in the shoes of people of another neurological type -- a very different kind of empathy -- varies as greatly among non-autistic people as it does among autistic people, with some finding it easy and some finding it impossible, and most in between.

This viewpoint was first expressed in writing by Jim Sinclair in 1988: