First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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Mysty
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14 Sep 2010, 12:20 am

Carada wrote:

I go to that forum, and there is nothing there about BPD and having a relationship with someone with Asperger's. I guess I will look for help elsewhere on that regard.

I have no way to tell if you mean the BPD message board I linked to, or the other forum here at the Wrong Planet messageboard that I mentioned.

If you mean the BPD board, you posted a very general request for help. I posted a link that might be helpful. It wasn't meant as help with understanding Aspergers, and what people with it are like in relationships. It was meant for you for helping yourself.

Carada wrote:

Here's a question:
Why is it that people on the outside are expected to "deal with it" instead of the Asperger being expected to do something about it him/herself?

Well, if they are talking to YOU, then, they may be saying that simply because you are the person you can control.

Also, if by "it" you mean being aspie, because that's something they can't change. Asking them not to be aspie is asking them to be something they are not. Asperger's is not like BPD. It's not something you can get rid of and leave oneself intact but healthier. Yes, they can grow and learn and such, and maybe even fit the diagnostic criteria less, but, still, there's many aspie traits we don't need to get rid of. For an aspie, trying to be normal, average, ordinary, is NOT the road to good mental health.

If, by "it" you mean some specific relationship issue, well, yes they should work on the issue, if they see it as an issue. But you can't make them do it. Or maybe they don't see it as an issue. In which case, yes, it's up to you to deal with it, whether that be by confronting them, or accepting what's going on, or whatever.

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Aspie Quiz: 110 Aspie, 103 Neurotypical.
Used to be more autistic than I am now.

dryad
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14 Sep 2010, 8:57 am

TheMisfit wrote:

I have a question for both NTs and Aspies.

When you look somebody in the eyes (make eye contact), what do you see? Do you get non verbal clues about the emotion state of that person? Do you focus on the pattern of the irises? Or you see something else?

AS here:

I see their eyes. Literally. On the occasions where I do pick up non-verbal clues, it's more from their body language (how they hold their shoulders, what their hands or eyebrows are doing, etc.).

I *can* often read expression in my daughter's eyes, however. I assume it's because I've known her her whole life, and am so attuned to her natural body language and facial expressions that I see her changes more readily.

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dryad
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14 Sep 2010, 5:47 pm

Janissy wrote:

Shadows in the fog? No. That analogy wouldn't apply for me. So how do I percieve people? That's a hard one. I percieve people that are physically with me mainly by their physical presence and the "feel" I get from interacting with them. I am "with" them whether we are interacting or just sharing physical proximity like passing on the street. If I know anything about them then their backstories and our shared experiences are like a web that we are both in that connects us.

WrongPlanet is my first experience interacting on a longstanding basis with people I have never met (I personally know everybody that I interact with on Facebook). I perceive people here not by their physical presence (which I have no conception of) but by their posting styles, opinions and backstories.

A few nights ago I had a nightmare that made me wonder if I have absorbed too much pain from posters here. I dreamed I died and went to heaven. I was standing on fluffy clouds and all around me were clouds but I was alone. For the time, that didn't bother me because it was so cool walking around on the clouds of heaven. Then I started to get lonely. I saw some people off in the distance. "Shadows in the fog" at that point, since the clouds billowed up around them and I couldn't make them out too clearly. I ran towards them yelling greetings and ran smack into a chainlink fence. I yelled through the fence but they couldn't hear me. I tried to scale the fence but it went up an indinite distance. Then a voice said "just because it's in the clouds doesn't mean it's heaven". I woke up in absolute horror. That would be Hell for me (according to the dream)- to walk around in a nice enviroment yet be separated from everybody else by a chainlink fence that I can see through and yell through but not actually communicate through and people move around like, well, like shadows in the fog. Very literally my idea of Hell. And for some posters here it is Hell. And for others it would be Heaven to have a chainlink fence between themselves and the rest of humanity that they want little to no contact with. So I suppose my dream mixed those two broad groups of posters together and the "vibe" I have absorbed here to come up with that dream.

Long story even longer, "shadows in the fog" is exactly the opposite of how I percieve people and perceiving people that way would be a literal nightmare for me as it was that night when I dreamed it.

I enjoy interpreting dreams. I'm no expert on the dreams of others because it's naturally an internal process. But I have a theory about yours (correct me if it doesn't "feel" right).

You have identified the difficulties many of us express (separateness), as well as the comfort we can sometimes find (the chainlink fence could be alikened to a comfortable separation from society, i.e., "but they couldn't hear me". It's important to you (and many of us, too, so not trying to sound separatist) to feel "connected" so the fence was an "insurmountable" obstacle. It's just not comfortable for us, and a fence is a reasonable RL representation of a 'barrier' against those things we just don't get.

conclusion: YOU want to connect, and you CAN (and do) relate on a compassionate level. You have the open mind that enables you to do so.

In a nutshell: your dream indicates to me that you have a strong grasp on what it's like to be Aspie, and you have a strong desire to reach out and help. Based on the insights you've given us (even in this thread alone) you have even demonstrated this. Yes, it can be Hell for us. BUT, people like you who can translate between the "fence" without being judgmental (at least i haven't gotten a whiff of it from you) are priceless. Scream through the fence! We actually have heard, and you have made us feel like we have a chance.

Thank you, Janissy. *CURTSY*

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DandelionFireworks
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14 Sep 2010, 7:54 pm

@Janissy, that sounds like heaven to me. No people! Fluffy Clouds!

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Carada
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14 Sep 2010, 9:26 pm

I agree with everything you have said, but what I mean is that what I've read thus far suggests that other people are responsible to help the Aspie gain control or combat the problem. Yes, I want him to accept his role in our relationship and work on things that he agrees he needs to work on, not just say he will and then never do it - or worse, he has to do it in "his time" which can take weeks, months, and I'm beginning to think possibly years. I don't even mind understanding the condition so I can help by being a more supportive, compassionate partner. I don't see why it is difficult to show he cares when I am crying, for example. Why, instead, do I have to be treated like I am wrong or bad for doing it, and then yelled at because somehow I'm trying to make him feel like me or make him have my emotion (which I'm really not doing!)? I cannot help that I have emotions, I believe it is normal, and I believe it is reasonable to expect someone who supposedly loves you to reach out and support/comfort when that happens instead of becoming a stiff shell of a person with a face full of hate and frustration. I don't want to change him, but I do believe that some of his methods need to change if he ever wants a successful relationship with me. So, why can't he just do it instead of admitting that it is not effective or "healthy" but then doing nothing at all about it except to get angry all over again if I bring one thing up about us, our future, or his behaviors? Why am I being told by him that it's "just how he is" and that I need to adapt, change, and get punished or treated negatively when I display emotions or share my thoughts or concerns? All the books and websites I've seen thus far say that it is basically up to the NT in the relationship to guide the Aspie, so why?

Mysty
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14 Sep 2010, 9:51 pm

Carada wrote:

I agree with everything you have said, but what I mean is that what I've read thus far suggests that other people are responsible to help the Aspie gain control or combat the problem.

Quote:

All the books and websites I've seen thus far say that it is basically up to the NT in the relationship to guide the Aspie, so why?

I can't comment on what you've read, because I haven't read it. I haven't seen anything like that.

Most of what's out there seems to be for parents of autistic children. And it is up to a parent to guide their child.

The books I've seen relating to autism or Asperger's in adults are written by someone with autism or Asperger's. None of those I've read have anything like what you are saying.

So, I really don't know what you are reading. But, if it's written for someone who doesn't have autism but is dealing with someone with autism, then, yes, it's going to talk about what that person who doesn't have autism can do. If it's written for those who want to help someone with autism, it's going to talk about how to do that.

Ultimately, you can't make him change.

Quote:

I cannot help that I have emotions, I believe it is normal, and I believe it is reasonable to expect someone who supposedly loves you to reach out and support/comfort when that happens instead of becoming a stiff shell of a person with a face full of hate and frustration.

If the person one loves has autism or Asperger's, that's not a reasonable expectation. Even for a normal person, there's a limit to how much of that you can reasonably expect. Someone can't give you that all the time. You are responsible for your own emotions.

Oh, and what you are seeing in their face as hate, probably isn't. If they are frustrated, likely it's comes out of love. Because they do care and are helpless to help you.

Quote:

So, why can't he just do it instead of admitting that it is not effective or "healthy" but then doing nothing at all about it except to get angry all over again if I bring one thing up about us, our future, or his behaviors?

A person with autism can't "just do it", because, well, because he can't just do it.

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Aspie Quiz: 110 Aspie, 103 Neurotypical.
Used to be more autistic than I am now.

Gnomon
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15 Sep 2010, 1:12 am

My question for NTs: Are you conscious of your connections to other people, or are they so pervasive and automatic for you that they form, strengthen, wither, and disappear fluidly without necessarily making deliberate choices?

Celoneth
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15 Sep 2010, 7:19 am

Carada wrote:

I don't see why it is difficult to show he cares when I am crying, for example. Why, instead, do I have to be treated like I am wrong or bad for doing it, and then yelled at because somehow I'm trying to make him feel like me or make him have my emotion (which I'm really not doing!)? I cannot help that I have emotions, I believe it is normal, and I believe it is reasonable to expect someone who supposedly loves you to reach out and support/comfort when that happens instead of becoming a stiff shell of a person with a face full of hate and frustration.

It is difficult for us. When someone's crying, it's uncomfortable - I have no idea what to do, I want to help the person and fix the problem, but they're emotional and from experience I know that offering to think of solutions when they're emotional is just going to make them more upset - which leads to the problem of not knowing what to do. I have no idea how NT people know how to say, how to approach people to cheer them up - if I tried it, it would feel unnatural and not achieve anywhere near the same results - so a natural reaction is to withdraw or get frustrated.

dryad
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15 Sep 2010, 10:16 am

Mosaicofminds wrote:

Which brings up more questions...for those of you with AS, when you get advice from people who you know are socially skilled, how do you know how much is really generally applicable and how much comes from the personality of the advice-giver? For example, I hate confrontation so I might give someone advice that would help them avoid conflict, but it might not be as good for solving the problem in the long run. Or someone might value keeping a job with a conformist culture over being honest, so they might advise you to hide a lot of things about yourself at work, whereas another person with different values or life experience might suggest taking the risk of being yourself or finding another job.

Naturally, I can only speak for myself, but I determine applicability on a number of factors.

1) The "tone" of the advice. Specifically, is the person being supportive or critical? If it's the latter, I assume the person is coming from an emotional space that is likely biased, and I'm less likely to consider the 'advice'. (BTW, I've only seen one post thus far that I thought was more critical than constructive. That's a great record in the 47 pages I've managed so far!)

2) Does it, or could it apply directly to me? (seems obvious, but I actually ask it of myself when reading)

3) Does it contradict my personal sense of ethics, or is it something I've already tried? If not, I read on...

4) Could I actually manage to do it??? Only time can tell... :)

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DenvrDave
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15 Sep 2010, 9:58 pm

Gnomon wrote:

I'm intrigued by your question, but not quite clear on the meaning. Would you please clarify or re-phrase?

Gnomon
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16 Sep 2010, 1:25 am

DenvrDave wrote:

Gnomon wrote:

I'm intrigued by your question, but not quite clear on the meaning. Would you please clarify or re-phrase?

Aside from being aware of labeled statuses like "friend," "lover," "family," etc., are NTs directly aware of their own emotional connections and the effect they have on them, or is it largely a subconscious process?

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Carada
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16 Sep 2010, 2:56 am

Well then, how does a NT learn to be ok with an Aspie or Autistic not reaching out, showing love or emotions, or being there?

By the way, I don't want it "all the time," that's his assumption, too, but I only get about one to three hours a day with him when I am able to see him (I am not living with him right now). And, I know I'm responsible for my own emotions. In this case, I was upset about our wedding being today since we are no longer having it. It's kind of hard not to reach out when someone is there and you are experiencing painful, tough emotions but what I'm getting from this conversation is that I will have to not reach out to him because it will get me nowhere and I should not expect him to do anything.

Riddle me this: he wants to try again, and says I can live with him and we can be engaged as long as I just leave him alone. He doesn't want me talking to him, calling him, being around him. I'm not going to ask if it's unreasonable, because I have an inkling it must be normal and reasonable for people with autism/asperger's from what you've said previously, But, are there not high-functioning aspies/asd's out there who can maintain relationships? He and I are going to lose the best thing to ever happen to us because he doesn't want to the do any work at all for the relationship and can't figure out what he wants or how he feels, and he is just angry, sore, and tired all the time because of work. Is there some rule that an Aspie can only juggle a certain number of things in life and others will have to drop away to make room (job, play, and no room for girlfriend - so if he had no job, maybe I'd have a chance)? I don't mean to sound cynical, and I know I come across that way, but I really don't understand. I ordered "The Other Half of Asperger's Syndrome" but I fear I may not even get it in time to sort this out, so what good is that?

I don't want to change him, I just want him back the way he used to be. He used to be able to do better with us, and I can't figure out what went wrong - I know we love each other. I know I can't make any of this happen. I know I am completely powerless, but I can still try to do something instead of nothing to help this work. I just need the secret, code key, or whatever it is that is the way to build and keep a relationship with an Aspie. If you can answer at least one of my questions, thank you.

DandelionFireworks
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16 Sep 2010, 3:12 am

If you mean he NEVER wants you to contact him, how often does he initiate contact? My first thought is that something seriously stressing him, which maybe even he doesn't realize or couldn't name, and dealing with any human beings at all is very painful, but he still loves you and doesn't want to give you up. If he's changed, this seems quite likely. But I don't know what to do about it.

However, if you don't think you'll ever be able to cope with periods of this, which will continue to happen, there's no rule that says you have to stay in this relationship. It may not be his "fault" or anything, but that doesn't mean you aren't suffering. Is this something you can endure on and off interspersed with the way he is that you like?

(Disclaimer: I probably shouldn't be giving relationship advice.)

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dryad
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16 Sep 2010, 9:20 am

katzefrau wrote:

i want to point out that considerateness and empathy are not the same thing. i live in an apartment building where the walls are thin: i know i shouldn't come home drunk at 4 a.m. on a weeknight and play really loud music, but my next door neighbor, as NT as anyone could get (and when i run into her, generally a pretty pleasant person) does not.

you know, i'm really confused about this stuff too. i've never thought of myself as someone who lacks empathy (i am an ethical vegetarian, for example), yet i find myself sometimes avoiding friends that are going through something rough, feeling like they're faking for attention. and when someone teases me for being too serious about something, i want to deck them. don't they know i do actually have a sense of humor??? i just don't like what they just said!!

I took an online empathizing quotient test that someone had posted in another thread:
http://eqsq.com/eq-sq-tests/

.. and the results totally stunned me:
empathizing quotient 14 (average woman: 48; average man: 39)
systemizing quotient: 88 (average woman: 51; average man: 61)

result: "extreme systemizing"
(of women in the control group, zero percent scored as extreme systemizers)

Fascinating. I've always considered myself quite empathetic/sympathetic, yet:

empathizing quotient: 33
systemizing quotient: 93 "Extreme Systemizing"

I'm female, too.

I'd be curious, if an 'expert' in ASD did a comparative study using this test, whether it would show a kind of 'hallmark' tendency for people on the spectrum?

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dryad
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16 Sep 2010, 11:40 am

DenvrDave wrote:

I made friends recently with someone whom I think is on the spectrum, based on their communication style and other non-verbal cues, but I didn't say anything about autism spectrum disorders though I very much would have liked to ask them about it. I would like to have told my friend that I am informed about ASDs, I understand things like executive dysfunction, sensory overload, socialization challenges, etc., that I have several friends on the spectrum, and that I empathize/sympathize with people on the spectrum. However, I kept my mouth shut out of respect for this person's privacy. I would like to have told him that I'm a friendly NT with good intentions. But I didn't due to NT social conventions.

My question to WP members who are on the spectrum is, hypothetically if you met a random NT who acted friendly, how would you feel if the hypothetical NT started talking about neuro-diversity and ASDs? Would you be offended? Let me ask this somewhat differently, when I meet people who have obvious ASD traits, how can I, or even should I, communicate that I am a friendly sympathetic NT with good intentions without hurting anyone's feelings?

Edit: fixed grammar and spelling.

A) Didn't you say you have a child on the spectrum? Or do I have you confused with someone else? If I'm not confused, then perhaps you can bring that up. If I am confused, I'm not sure what you could say, based on B.

B) Is the person aware of their autistic traits? Do they even wish to be made aware of them? For me, ignorance is not bliss, but on the other hand I know at least one person whom I'm sure *is* AS (practically textbook), but is very resistant to the idea of it, even knowing I am.

Wish I could be more help. :/

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DandelionFireworks
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16 Sep 2010, 1:37 pm

dryad wrote:

The confusion arises over the use of "empathy" in this context to mean "normal emotions felt for the reasons NTs feel them, as well as love of socialization" rather than what you were talking about.

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