First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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Last edited by marshall on 11 Oct 2010, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I just have to say that this signature line really cracked me up :

"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.'"-George Carlin

George Carlin was/is the best.

Not to get off tangent as this isn't the thread to be talking about it but yeah that always struck me as a good signature.

I've been digging through this thread a bit. Here's an old question that I don't think anyone answered. Even if katzefrau doesn't check in here, I figure it might be illuminating for everyone else.

It seems like they think the dog is bothering you, or they don't like random people petting their dog - so, to get the dog away, they pretend it is bothering you so they can apologize and feel less awkward about the whole thing.

Or there might just be something about your facial expression that is putting them off. Next time, try this: as soon as you start petting the dog, look up into the person's face and smile. You have to smile sweetly and you have to make eye contact - but literally just for half a second. Then you can resume petting. You don't have to say anything - though they might start making dog-related small-talk. If so, you can just make some random compliment about the dog or something.

The whole thing is pretty inane, but that's how it usually goes down in my experience. It seems funny as I try to analyze it.

That's odd. Most of the time if I smile and am conspicuous about looking at a dog, the owner will... brighten up? Look slightly happier. Especially if I make some comment (not even to them) about the dog being cute.

I would also add that it's usually polite to ask the owner, "May I pet your dog?" Most of the dogs I have petted enjoy it and don't mind strangers, but some dogs can be more uptight or aggressive.

i haven't checked this thread in some time so i'm glad i happened to open it - i finally got my dog question answered!

i seem to threaten alpha / aggressive dogs, but it always seems to be the sweet friendly ones whose owners apologize for their approaching me. so rather than being a warning that the dog may not be safe to pet (which would make sense if it was an aggressive dog) i wondered if they were actually made uncomfortable by me somehow (did they worry something about me would contaminate the dog??) -- perhaps it is in fact that i do not appear friendly, and not anything actually about the dog.

i am much friendlier to people's animals than to the owners generally, so i will keep that in mind. (both addressing the owner and asking if it's ok to pet the dog) sometimes these things seem pretty obvious after i've asked, but i don't understand how i appear to other people. i feel ridiculous asking these questions. but where else can you ask a question like this?

i know quite well i am the same harmless and well-intentioned person whether i have made the effort to appear to be friendly or not, whether i am smiling and happy or not, and so it rarely occurs to me that i should monitor anything about the way i greet people. i forget that they only know what they can see, and interpret it the way they understand other people that are not me. i'm quite capable of greeting someone amicably, but i don't always remember (or have the energy or desire). i also sometimes am so annoyed at constantly being misinterpreted that i rebel against the idea of attempting to present myself a certain way. i feel it's not my responsibility. i can't seem to really absorb the idea that outward presentation is the only reality other people could know. i can't explain that thought any better at the moment .. i know something about it doesn't work right. but i get exasperated with the whole thing and give up. it's so frustrating, that i can be so intelligent at certain things and yet the simplest interactions with other people will confuse me to tears and ruin my day.

i would so like to live in a world for a day where instead of all that crap this interaction happened:
dog and owner sit next to me. i (failing to consider that i should ask permission, also failing to appear friendly to the dog owner) pet the dog. dog owner says "hey - i wish you hadn't petted my dog without asking." me: "why?" dog owner: "you're scowling and i don't know you." me: "oh. sorry. would it have been ok if i asked? or do i have to both ask and not scowl?" .. and so on.

the weird thing about all this is, i'm getting the idea. ... finally seeing a pattern in a lot of these sorts of interactions. the truth is not told because people are always thinking they might hurt other people's feelings. i am backwards from all that. THE UNTRUTH is what hurts my feelings. and that's the default! what!?

anyway, while i'm here ..

NT's:
question i may have already asked (or someone else may have. i don't remember but this thread is too long and i am too lazy to sift back through it and check)

can anyone explain why it seems to go so dramatically against the social fabric to object to things like gossip, insults made behind people's backs and etc? i'm confused about why it's acceptable to speak of people terribly in private as long as one acts friendly to the person directly, and seems to be frowned upon to sort out conflict directly and immediately. to me the whole thing is the other way round. but mainly it's that it seems NOT OK to say you don't like people acting like this. if people are being obvious jerks, what right do they have to be surprised or offended when someone tells them so?

another question ..
this one is a bit hard to articulate.

when someone doesn't appear friendly, what is the thing about the unfriendliness that's offputting? do you worry that the person does not wish to be bothered, do you think the person dislikes you, are you concerned the person is somehow dangerous?

p.s.
i love this question. it's so beautiful.

there's something stunning about the way you've put the words together, but also the thoughts. it illustrates so tremendously how it's possible to be able to dissect something in a complex manner and yet still not understand it on a basic human communication level.

i wish i knew how to ask things like that. i would probably have a thousand more questions.

but, NTs: imagine you could multiply six digit numbers instantaneously in your head, but could not add 2 + 2.

I don't have an answer, but I'm thinking, this is an illustration why being an ordinary average NT should never be the goal for those on the spectrum. Because that's not a step up and ordinary average people have their own imperfections, and we really don't need to set about gaining imperfections. Enlightenment is a better goal. Or the same thing worded in some less spiritual way. Being a good, mature, capable person.

I think, that thing of talking about someone unkindly behind their back but being friendly in person, it's something that for many people, it's a natural, innate thing. It's how they are. In order to be different, they have to work at it. And to work at it, they have to first see it as a valuable goal. Some do and work at it imperfectly. Some don't.

As far as sorting out conflict directly, and such, some people just don't like conflict. Or they value avoiding it, and playing games to pretend it's not there. Not really an NT trait we need to aspire to, beyond the ability to keep our mouths shut sometimes even when we'd like to say something. Which I see as from a practical viewpoint... say something if doing so will make a difference. Don't bother if it won't.

Okay, I did sort of answer the question, but from an in-the-middle perspective rather than a full NT perspective. I'm not NT enough for that.

I think this is a great subject. I am a NT. I only recently became informed about Aspergers. I met a guy online and we hit it off. Although, I didn't know it from our email conversations, he was a self-diagnosed Aspie. On our first date, we met for a casual dinner and he brought me flowers. I was driving up to the restaurant as he was walking up. My first impression was his gait. Instead of walking erect, he walked with his trunk/chest way in front of his hips. It was almost like he was a step behind his upper body in terms of motion, like he was constantly trying to catch up with himself. I met him at the restaurant door and he gave me the flowers. We were both a bit nervous since it was our first meeting. I did notice his eyes. However, he did look at me quite a bit so I never got the impression that he "wouldn't look me in the eye". To me, his eyes looked solid, meaning all one color, a dark, grey/blue. Although, we had spoke on the phone prior to meeting, his intonations, inflections, etc. were still a bit lacking in terms of the general population. However, once I got use to it, I could begin to detect his own subtleties in his voice. It was a terrific dinner filled with wonderful stories and great conversation. We went on to have a relationship. I miss him greatly even though he broke my heart.

Hey @katzefrau...I can offer you my perspective on this subject. Whether to engage in gossip or not is actually a moral question, although most NTs I know don't view it as such. I believe that's because gossip is so pervasive, people don't even realize that engaging in it - or not - requires that a moral choice be made. Instead, most people assume that gossip is inevitable (and therefore somehow acceptable), and the only real challenge is not getting caught (by the subject of the gossip) doing it. When you object to someone gossiping, I'm sure you're pointing out what should be obvious to everyone: that talking about someone behind his/her back doesn't solve problems, it's typically mean, cowardly, and generally doesn't make anyone's life better. And the person you call out for behaving this way will likely be embarrassed - and probably angry. But instead of owning up to their bad behavior, they'll typically turn their anger on the person who pointed out their bad behavior, e.g., you're a tightass, you're judgmental, you're "superior," blah, blah, blah. They'll make the argument about you and your character flaws (chief among them being your willingness to point out their bad behavior), to avoid facing up to the ugly truth: gossiping is a crappy thing to do, and they did a crappy thing.

To your second question, I ran into a situation like this at work recently. I work in an extraordinarily friendly office, with lots of nice people. People I don't have contact with (but cross paths with in the office) often say hello, and ask, "How's it going?" and things like that. There's one new guy who doesn't behave in the same way. He's quite aloof, and his aloofness bothered me because it seemed as though he didn't like me - and I'd never said a word to him. So that bothered me, because since I'd never said a word to him, I thought perhaps he didn't like the way I looked, or that I'm a woman, or something really superficial like that. This man is not a handsome man. He's not ugly, either, but he's not a man who would be considered "hot" by most women. Anyway, I heard him speak a few days ago, and realized he has a bit of a speech impediment. He seems quiet and reserved toward everyone, and of course, he's new to the organization (still finding his way, finding his place in the company). His behavior very likely has absolutely nothing to do with me. But when I thought it did, I felt negatively judged by him. Silly, I know....but it was very offputting. Anyway, hope this helped.

The reason you shouldn't object to gossip is the same reason you shouldn't object to reality shows and Justin Bieber. The response will be similar to “Thank you, Captain Obvious” because everyone hates preaching to the choir. As for why people get mad if you say it to their face, well it's quite simple. People are cowards. In high school, this kid kept calling me ret*d, so one day I informed him that he was the ret*d. He got so mad, but being the coward he was, he did nothing. He would much rather prefer I say it behind his back, because that way he doesn't have to deal with it.

Its impossible to generalize an answer. When I was younger and more judgmental, I would think that people who appeared unfriendly were unfriendly but I didn't stop to think about why. In other words, I was great at "judging a book by its cover." However, as I matured I began to realize that everyone has their own demons and their own cross to bear, and looks can be and often are deceiving. Now when I see a person who appears unfriendly, I don't jump to conclusions but I wonder what internal battles they may be fighting. Sorry its not such a great answer. But its a start.

Well, when someone appears to not be very approachable, mostly it's that I feel they don't wish to be bothered, whether it's because they don't like me, they don't like anyone, or they are busy with something, but most of the time I can sense their self-loathing and resentment towards society. Everyone says looks can be deceiving, but they forget that most of the time they aren't. I pay attention to 3 main things: their most common facial expression, their clothing/body shape/grooming and all that, and what they are usually doing, or how they are interacting. I check to see if the three things fit together as they should, and if so, then that person is consistent. I'm a big fan of consistency. I like happy people (as do most others) so if someone is consistently angry, it's hard to talk to that person for too long of a period of time.

For example, if you see a girl wearing an anti-globalization T-Shirt, in good shape, with the kind of smile you would expect from a person blinded by self-righteousness, and likely a vegan, then what kind of person comes to mind? Yeah, me too. She probably is too important to talk to me unless I start the conversation with "So what is globalization anyway? I keep hearing the term as a buzzword almost, but what is it, and why is it bad if the whole world is doing it?" Then she might explain why globalization is, in fact, a bad thing, instead of a good thing, despite the fact that people don't want bad things. Then it's a matter of "Do I really want to put up with all of this drama every time I talk to her?" and I proceed from that point.

Now sure, this is a generalization, but generalizations are generally true...hence the name. If you can get that down, you can go into more specific details. Being anti-generalization is just another form of ignorance. Hell, for that matter, being anti-anything is ignorant, no matter how bad "it" is.

i think it's a bit odd to arrive at either of these conclusions, that someone who does not appear to be friendly or approachable must either be resentful or fighting some kind of internal battle. or that the person doesn't like you, which seems to be the first idea people have, judging by responses and other things i've heard people say.

i wouldn't assume any of these things. i would assume someone was preoccupied or something. or maybe disinterested - but how could someone you don't even know dislike you?? i can easily see how someone could be unavailable for conversation yet sound of mind and spirit.



i don't know if i agree with this.



nor this.

but interesting perspectives, anyway ...

i can see how projecting a friendly / approachable image could be really important, but easier said than done. there are lots of topics on here like "do people always tell you to smile?" and such, so i can't be the only one who can't pull it off.

When I say looks are usually not deceiving, that is assuming that you know what to look for, and how to evaluate it. I'm usually pretty good with this; I always have been. I gave my opinion on all my mother's friends once, and she said about her really good friend that it took her 3 years to figure out what I saw in 2 house parties of talking with her and observing her behavior.

As for the approachable part, I suppose I was unclear as to what I meant. I meant that if someone appears to be unapproachable, it typically means they do not wish to be bothered at the moment. Sometimes, the person actually WANTS to be bothered, but they are too shy to ask someone for conversation. The other things I listed are possible reasons the person might not want to be bothered. Usually, I can spot an unhappy soul from across the room as easily as I can spot a slut, or a narcissist. I'm pretty good at this, better than any NT I've ever met. I've met enough people that I can categorize them into general groups, and then break them down into more specific groups. Kind of like phylum, genus, species and all that. It's not supposed to be 100% accurate, but that's impossible anyway, and for that matter, undesirable. If I was able to figure everything out about someone, why would I bother talking to them? I could just talk to myself instead of calling them up.

As for the anti-generalization part, I was merely pointing out that being against something is a sure way to never understand it. When I use the word "ignorance" I don't mean stupid, or idiotic, I mean "lack of knowledge" and being against something means fear, and fear reflects a lack of understanding.

What you say about projecting a friendly image is, in fact, easier said than done. It's a lot easier (and more desirable, at least in my opinion) to just be yourself all the time. For that matter, how are you ever supposed to project a friendly image if you aren't being yourself? So as long as you are being you, you will meet the people you deserve to meet. I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean that as far as you get what you put out there. People think that friendship and love are irrational and can't be explained. That's a load of crap, maybe put out there by people who are jealous of others. Much in the same way pushing a button on a remote will make the TV go on or off, or the channels go up, or the volume goes down, the way you act will get certain reactions from people. The difference with the TV parallel is that the TV is always the same, and so is the remote, and all the buttons are easy to figure out, and work the same every time. So different people prefer different buttons, and some like the volume to go down, and some like to change the channel a lot. You reap what you sew, and if you don't have many friends, it means that there is something you are doing to put people off. Now, if you don't understand what people see in others, this can be a tough task. I know, I've been there. But as my self-confidence grew, so did my understanding of people. And for that matter, if people like you, reading them becomes SOMUCHEASIER