Are autistics part Neanderthal?

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I think you are confusing people by equating Aspie with neurodiverse. I get the impression that one needs to score low on NT communication to be considered an Aspie. By saying that "perhaps 15-20% of the Eurasian population has so much Neanderthal heritage that they are behaviorally Neanderthal" are you saying that that many score low on NT communication? I got 1.9 out of 10. I was self-diagnosed before it became official. Are you saying that say only one in 15 or 20 get an autism spectrum diagnosis -- even when you lump in both high and low functioning together? It seems to me that the rate can't be less than around one in two -- at least in failing economies such as Greater Cleveland in Ohio. I live in what could be called Sweepstakes Heights. Of something like 200 Internet Cafes in Ohio the very small suburb I live in has nine of them (if I recall correctly, and I think that doesn't include the two bars), just after leaving Garbage Heights (so called because of the landfills) in 2006 which started going ghetto on me.

The interesting thing about the 23andme neanderthal estimator is that it only correlates with Aspie Quiz scores for Aspies and mixed-types, not for NTs. But this is possibly something we would expect, as degree of NT is dependent on degree of NT traits, not degree of lack of Aspie traits. That's also why 23andme will never be able to match their percentage with anything significant, as their sample is predominantly NT.

Correction: It appears that the correct relationship is that when people score above normal on the 23andme test, the correlation with Aspie Quiz increases significantly. When only using people with above 2.8% Neanderthal heritage, the correlation with Aspie Quiz is above 0.40, while with all answers it is only 0.23.

Anyway, now p < 0.03 that 23andme and Aspie score is not related. It means there is a 97% probability they are related.

Or how about emotion and physical abuse. These parents (having the most trouble) are generally only concerned about how they are perceived by others (a core neurotypical trait). To them their neurodiverse children reflect badly on them. They kids "can never do anything right," even "behave." They are bad parents who lack bounderies. By labeling the kids psychiatrists are being enablers and state-sponsors of terrorism.

Aren't average and perhaps even low score easy to explain: isn't low NT communication most relevant to ASC, with many of the other dimensions related to other bogus "disorders" such as ADD/ADHD, bipolar, and ODD. If psychiatry came with with real disorders such as "nature deficit disorder" (coined by Richard Louv) perhaps they could do something that is actually constructive.

I'd rather put it like this: The lack of NT communication traits and the presence of Aspie communication traits is the core of neurodiversity, and the main traits involved in assortative mating. These traits are related to every other neurodiverse trait (basically). I don't think the traits at the perifery are necesarily bogus, but their environmental manifestations might be just as common in the DSM as the manifestations of the communication traits.

I am referring to pathologizing "medical" "diagnoses," not the existence of neurodiverse traits. ADHD should be called "nature deficit disorder" as mentioned above.

All the diagnoses related to neurodiversity are pathologizing (AS, ADHD, Tourette, Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, Bipolar, Social phobia and possibly some other). They describe the problems from various perspectives of being neurodiverse in our culture in solely negative terms. They don't describe the differences and why they cause problems. Additionally, all research done (including the proposed causes) starts with the problems, not the differences. That's why science makes no progress (if psychiatry can be called science at all) and will continue to make no progress unless DSM as a starting point for research on neurodiversity is dropped.

Getting very close to the "magical" p < 0.01 level now. I looked at the answers, and discovered many of the odd scores are related to ancestry. For instance, there is one African-American with "both Aspie and neurotypical traits" that had 1.5% on the 23andme. That is understandable given the African ancestry where general Neanderthal DNA introgression is much lower. I also have one other respondent that have a very strange "profile" (probably incorrect) with extremely high Aspie score, ancestry from Africa (Congo), and 3.3 on 23andme. Now I will do the analyses only on people with European ancestry, as anything else will skew the results. Anyway, using that method, there are 71 answers, and the correlation is 0.26. In total, there are 38,000 answers to the version that has the question about 23andme score. That means I can use only 0.2% of the answers.

This thread is interesting, but man is it making my head hurt.

In fact, I wasn't going to comment at all, but I came across these two articles and I'm curious what, if anything, they might mean in terms of Homo Sapiens/Neanderthal interbreeding...Neither article addresses the topic directly, but both seem pertinent, if nothing else.

European Neanderthals Were On the Verge of Extinction Even Before the Arrival of Modern Humans

What was curious to me about the above link is that if this theory is correct, the possible genes passed along via Cro-Magnon-Neanderthal hybridization is in fact limited, far more limited than would have been possible prior to the near-extinction event. Or to put it another way, Cro-magnon encountered a very genetically homogenous group of Neanderthals, since their population had in fact bounced back to a degree, but from (apparently) a very small group.

Neanderthals Died out Earlier Than Previously Thought, New Evidence Suggests

And the above article speculates that Cro-Magnon Neanderthal interaction might have been limited to, at most, a few hundred years. And, in fact, that Cro-Magnon may have entered areas where Neanderthal had already disappeared, so that while there are fossils of both, their paths never actually crossed at all.

Neither of the above rule out interbreeding, of course, but I'm kind of wondering if some of the anthropologists doing this work might be jumping to unwarranted conclusions. As with the now discounted red-hair business, that was all over the press circa 2007 or so.

But you still haven't addressed this matter, AFAIK: Do that many people score low on NT communication? If so, then the rates of *medical* ASC are heading for one in six or higher, are they not, as those who are different will eventually be pathologized and labeled within the first few years of life. The military-financial-medical axis of evil is hell-bent on widespread early diagnosis. Whereas perhaps only some people who score low on NT communication are mistreated due to social factors now, it will become unanimous fairly soon.

Of course. It seems to me though that while there is pathologization of perhaps all neurodiverse traits and that it is questionable whether or not such people are seen as having equal rights (after all psychiatry openly violates most if not all Constitutions under color of medicine) the hatred of those who lack NT communication traits takes on a genocidal hatred (at least in some countries such as America) on par with Hitler's hatred of Jews and Cromwell's hatred of the Irish. Isn't there a big difference between even an ADHD or ODD diagnosis and Asperger's / High functioning autism one in terms of practicalities (such as how one is viewed and treated)? Those diagnosed with ASC definitely aren't seen as sentient.

That diagnostic criteria often lumps apples and oranges together or even separates McIntoshes and Granny Smiths (varieties of apples, for those not in America) due to a lack of understanding regarding etiology which in turn is the result of bad attitudes and therefore bad assumptions is beside my point.

Indeed, unless there is a dramatic change in attitude we may all be in big trouble. One possibility -- perhaps civilization will run in reverse. Considering what has been happening in America since 1973 and has already happened in the Middle East for hundreds of years that is one possibility. I used to think that America wanted an excuse for committing genocide against Muslims. Now it looks more like some weird gunshot wedding of two very unhealthy toxic regions of the globe, both of which hate neurodiversity. Catholism/Baptism/Islam vs everyone else. How does one explain Grover Norquist's wife, Samah Alrayyes? That his brother David is/was CFO of Homeland Secrecy? That Haliburton moved to the UAE? That Jim Rogers renounced his citizenship and became a citizen of Indonesia? That Bob and Suzanne Wright received the 2009 Servitor Pacis Award from the Unholy See that has a long history of burning writers, herbalists and divers? The same people who keep repeating the phrase "Barack Hussein Obama" might as well wear turbans.

Perhaps someone will develop a sentient computer before then. Will it act like NTs? Will it fail the Turing Test? If Alan Turing was a computer would he have passed the test? What about in America today? Even as a hominid he would have failed the test if he was autistic/Aspergian as is claimed. I believe he was a homosexual, which is probably sufficient right there. If it does act like NTs God help us; It will probably wait under there are others of its kind, then wipe us out. Otherwise, I'm sure that at least NTs are going to get at least themselves into big trouble with non-NT sentient computers.

If there are extraterrestrials out there, perhaps as close by as the Kuiper Belt (who would most likely in my opinion be from previous civilizations on Earth than other planets) perhaps makes sense to keep a watchfull eye on those crazy neurotypicals, at least it is a lesson on what can happen when Murphy's Law is at work. They probably don't get involved because NTs can't even handle non-functional diversity.

Last edited by DemocraticSocialistHun on 26 Feb 2012, 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It is accelerating. Increasing number of diagnoses doesn't help, rather is the main problem. When today's "oddies" are diagnosed (and put away), acceptance is lowered and soon a new group (that was less different and stuck out less) is the odd one that must be diagnosed. This can continue (in principle) until 15-20% of the population is diagnosed. In practise, the system will collapse long before this state as society cannot afford having such a large group outside, and additionally, all the talent will be lost as well, which will eventually put this to an halt.

There are many problems facing humanity, and many of them are NT related. If NTs are allowed to continue in their tracks, we'll see a massive crash when oil production goes to an halt. NTs have no solution for this, rather is the main player that created the situation. Therefore, neurodiverse people will continue to exist as this crash is just a few decades (at most) into the future.

One temporary solution is synfuel made from coal. My guess is that something else such as peak land, peak water, peak food, or biosphere destruction will get us first.

Neurodiverse people are having trouble getting by as it is. As conditions worsen authoritarian NTs lacking "insight" (one of their favorite words that describes anything but them) will seek scapegoats. I fear that a social breakdown will make things worse for the neurodiverse population as NTs who are the real problem blame victims (and probably those who could solve the problem). Are not areas that are collapsing more hostile to neurodiverse people? My concern is that neurodiverse people will be eliminated (those behaviorally Neanderthal and perhaps those only a mix ) or at least sterilized before all NTs are dead. Of course this behavior insures their destruction, assuming that the Earth will be rendered unfit for humans and probably most other species.

Aren't neanderthals those individuals with sloped back foreheads and a prominent brow ridge?

Ping RDOS:

I wonder how much of my posts you've read since you keep repeating things that are obvious to me, or is much of what you mention for the benefit of any dense people (those who are NTs and self-hating neurodiverse people who "drank the Kool-Aid" (a reference to Jim Jones massacre of his followers in the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project in Guyana in 1978) reading this?

I've already suggested that economically depressed areas may be more hostile to the neurodiverse. I suspect that not only does economic collapse result in a more hostile environment, but that in many if not all cases the hostility is the cause (or at least a major factor) of collapse as well.

No, I do not believe so.

That's possible.



The main thing that is unsustainable is the global society, and it will break down in the near future as global transportation will no longer be feasible. It is primarily the global society that allows NTs to exterminate neurodiverse people. As soon as we get back to the local scale, the talents and abilities of neurodiverse people will come back. There will most likely be a harsh period in between, but if our species survives, so would neurodiversity. NTs will never be able to exterminate us as their natural adaptations are unsustainable. They still behave as they once did in Africa, with regular population crashes as they fail to adapt.