First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

Post Reply New Topic

I am not sure that this term is appropriate for people that are trying to gain as much insight to understand. But I assume you didn't use it in the usual recognised way of meaning taking too much advantage of a n opportunity.

I would like to ask a question to NT's. I have a coworker who will make eye contact with everyone but me. She accused me once or twice of starring at her but I really don't think I was. Its as if she can unconsciously pick up my eye movement isnt quite normal? Can you pick up when someone is uncomfortable with eye contact?

Hello. I have an ill-thought out question here.

I was just talking to my friend about how what is acceptable dress is quite limited here. We both agreed that it is more fun and interesting when people express their individuality through their clothing.

And I guess that aspies either being unaware or perhaps accepting their differences and not caring, tend to dress more individualistically.

Is it that NTs all feel very similar and choose the clothes they do because they really do like them, or is it more that they feel inhibited from expressing themselves? Is it more important to fit in than to be self expressive, basically?

Cheers, I hope this doesn't come across as offensive to NTs, it's not intended that way.

For many NTs, myself included, clothes are an expression of tribal affiliation more than a means of self expression. (I'm referring to clothes worn by choice, not clothes mandated by work.) Even the young people who self-express through clothes (as I did many years ago) still do it within the parameters of whichever tribe they have chosen affiliation with. The NTs most likely to use clothes as 100% self expression with no regard to message are toddlers and preschoolers. You'll see them in the grocery store with their parents: 4 year olds in Batman Capes and mittens in the summer, rain boots when it's dry, mardi gras beads worn over a coat. That ends in kindergarten.

For the rest of one's life, clothes send signals about tribal affiliation. For an NT, choosing tribal affiliation is a form of self expression. I'm guessing that this an alien and not entirely plausible concept to people on the spectrum. I'm guessing because you wondered if people feel "inhibited from expressing themselves" and this is a common sentiment on WP: that NTs suppress expressing who they are in order to fit in. But really, choosing a tribe is a choice and that tribal choice is a big part of who people are. They aren't knuckling under in order not to be squashed by the multitudes. They choose which tribe to affiliate with and wearing the clothes of that tribe is an expression of individuality even if nobody on WP really believes it.

Exceptions: stage musicians who manufacture a unique persona via the clothes they wear on stage (like Lady Gaga) and artists who use their clothes as yet another canvas. But even there, they have chosen tribal affiliation. Their tribe is "artist" which comes with its own set of clothing guidelines, mainly that you should dress as memorably (to others) as possible.

edited to add: there is somebody at WP who understands this: CockneyRebel. The tribe she has chosen is 60's British Mod. That she is separated from the other members of this tribe by the Atlantic Ocean and several decades doesn't matter. The point stands that she has chosen tribal affiliation and the clothes that go with it as a form of self expression. NTs do this too. It's just that only the artsiest are likely to choose a tribe whose other members are unavailable for interaction.

Wow, this is very interesting and informative. It's not something that I think would have ever occurred to me, but now that you say it, it makes a sort of sense and explains a lot. I still don't really understand the appeal/necessity, but I feel I've learned something about the less autistic humans among us. Thank you.

That's very interesting Jannisy, thanks. I guess the problem I have with choosing a tribe is the restrictions that come with tribalism. I've never really found a tribe that I can accept and be accepted in, do you have any insight to offer about aspies and tribes? I guess choosing who you throw your lot in with is an expression of sorts. I don't think I can hold a solid self together well enough for other people, and even if I try very hard to be part of a tribe, I always seem to veer off on my own course of self expression, rather than group expressions.

I hope I'm making sense, it is late.

I like the idea of adults wearing batman capes and tearing around like toddlers.

Well, good brainfood. Thanks.

As far as I can tell (from WP, at least). Aspies (and the entire autism spectrum) and tribes are antithetical. Tribes are a social group and the very nature of autism seems to go against joining a social group. Nonetheless, some do. For example there are members who describe their church group with great affection.

Some people describe attempts to join nerd tribes but still find them off-puttingly "group-ish". There are various threads about the differences between nerds and Aspies. Is one a subtype of the other? Are they a point of intersection between AS and NT? I think it's the latter. Nerds, (and I am one) seem to be people with a touch of autism traits (Broader Autism Phenotype) but the means (and desire) to join a tribe is still there. Older science nerds show tribal affiliation with (among other things) t-shirts that have chemical symbols and mathematical formulae on them. I have several, even though the only mathematical one that I understand are the pi/pie puns. My hunch is that an Aspie wouldn't wear one of those shirts unless they understand everything on the shirt. Otherwise, what's the point? The point is to show tribal affiliation which signals to other tribal members (even if they are strangers) that it is perfectly ok to start a conversation about such and such. I've had many conversations that were started by t-shirt choice.




That seems to be one of the differences between AS and NT.



It does make sense.



And you would see them at Comicon or the midnight premieres of the various Batman movies. But it's still tribal affiliation. The tribe is "extreme fan". Extreme fan has many members but they must adhere to the basic tenets: don't mix costumes, don't juice up your costume with details the character would never wear, and be knowledgeable about the character. If you are going to go aroubnd in a Batman cape, you need to have seen all the Batman movies. You can't wear it because you saw it in a store and thought it looked cool even though you are no fan of Batman. That would be one of the restrictions of tribalism that Aspies rebel against. Why shouldn't you wear the cape if you haven't seen the movies, read the comics and don't care about Batman? Why should fandom be a prerequisite? But it is. There are restrictions within every tribe, like you noted.

(Yay for rebelling in lockstep?)

So, how do you express yourself through clothing without making any statements about affiliation?

I'm not entirely sure you can. Even if you don't intend any affiliation statements, there are so many tribes that the odds are fairly high that whatever you choose is statistically likely to be a signal. Of course the odds are also fairly high that in choosing things with no intent at what they mean, you will wind up choosing the clothes of multiple tribes and send confusing mixed messages.


There was a poster in an entirely different thread who complained of being frequently hit on by women who assumed she was a lesbian. Her choice of hairstyle and clothes just happened to be markers of lesbian tribal affiliation even though she'd chosen them purely for comfort. She didn't want to change her style entirely (she liked it) but was becoming annoyed that it was sending out "I am a lesbian" signals to women of that tribe.

It's a conundrum but I don't know what you can do other than wear what you want and be prepared to fend off whoever mistakenly assumes you have a particular affiliation based on your clothes.

Hi Janissy, thanks... I am thinking about tribes a lot, but don't have much to say right now.

I'm pretty sure my current wardrobe doesn't indicate any affiliations because no self-respecting NT with fashion sense would ever wear it in public.

...What affiliation is indicated by an iPod in your hair and a pink seifuku? (That's one of the many outfits my friend might be seen in.) Come to that, what does a T-shirt (likely black, maybe 40% or 50% chance that it has one or more ads for companies like Sun Microsystems, possibly in slight disrepair) and a pair of gouchos indicate? (That is my wardrobe, except that sometimes it's a pair of jeans.)

Also, on a somewhat related note, how hard is it to stop belonging to a group?

I have no idea what those items indicate. You are young and young people deliberately choose items which will telegraph accurate meaning only to other young people. Cutting their (your) parents' generation out of that meaning loop is intentional. I did it. And now the next generation after me (yours) is doing it so whatever I guess will be wrong. And that's how your friend wants it.



It's hard. There will always be an element of betrayal when you switch affiliations. You can segue gracefully into the older version of the tribe, but changing radically will not be accepted happily. "You've changed. You used to be so cool. Now you're one of them".

edited to add:
The semiotics of clothes is a huge field. It is extremely complex, dense, quickly changing and easy to get wrong. This is partly by design. One of the functions of tribal affiliation clothing is to distinguish who is an actual member of the tibe from who is just faking it. The clothing symbols are deliberateley obscure and easy to get wrong. This means that the only way to make sure you are really getting the "tribal dress" right is full immersion, actual joining. In a benign group, getting it wrong will be met with gentle chiding because the group is fairly open to new members. In a non-benign group, getting it wrong can mean death. Examples of non-benign groups that can be fatally hostile to outsiders are organized crime, KKK, Aryan Nation and other White Power groups, urban gangs(in the U.S, every country has its' own). If you try to fake membership in one of those groups and something you got wrong in your clothes gives it away, they may and probably will kill you. Who would be insane enough to fake membership? Police and FBI (in the U.S.) who are undercover. For them, knowing exactly what to wear to show affiliation is literally a matter of life and death. For the rest of us, it's more a matter of interest.

Here's a wiki. www.en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Visual_Rhetor ... of_Fashion

If you read the Wiki, you'll see that clothing choice is a subset of non-verbal communication, so I wouldn't recommend undercover work to an FBI agent with Aspergers.

Hi katzefrau, I just wanted to clarify something I wrote. I used the expression "...internal battles they may be fighting" in a very broad sense, not a literal sense, and I think this may have caused some confusion. Its not a conclusion of mine, its an assumption. And, what I really meant is, when I see a person who appears unfriendly or unapproachable for whatever reason, I have trained myself to automatically assume that their outward appearance is not necessarily consistent with what is going on in their mind or their heart, and the person may be thinking about a special interest, counting cracks in the sidewalk, grieving a loss, or any number of possibilities of which I am not fully aware up and to and possibly including fighting an internal battle. In other words, I try to assume the best about people even if outward appearance is off-putting. So it wasn't a very good choice of words on my part. Sorry if this was confusing.

I like this notion of tribes. It explains some of my experiences. Like, I've not talent at fitting into a tribe. And, on top of that, lacking in ability and desire to be deferential to tribal leaders. These "tribes" have leaders that one is supposed to follow. One can get in trouble and be a social outcast if one doesn't. Or even get in trouble if one is incorrectly seen to be disrespectful to one of those leaders.

I don't really have a question but more of an informative statement. I don't know if it's just a quirk of my personality, an Aspie trait or something everyone does.


When I am involved with my computer, phone or other device I lose track of time. I know that for many people "Time flies when having fun" but even when it's not fun, like reinstalling Windows after screwing it up, time still flies for me. Unfortunately, I lose track of time a lot. Not just when I'm doing my thing. It seems to be that when I am thinking about what I could be doing, like reinstalling Windows lol, I daydream almost and think I was gone to the store for 30 mins when I actually left 2 hours ago.

However, when folding laundry for example, time seems to slow to an interminable crawl and I get anxious and stressed. Sometimes I get tired and can actually go fall asleep for several hours.

I know that doing boring things sucks and it seems like forever whilst doing them but for me the effect seems to be amplified, especially when compared to my wife, who seems to be able to focus on the boring stuff just as well as other things.

I think the main difference and problem here is that while I am removed from my interest I feel constant anxiety. Also, the longer it takes to get back to it the more stressed out I get. So, when I am doing something like folding laundry it seems like more and more time is being added or like I'm on a staircase that sprouts two extra steps for each one I take.

The bad news is that when I am in this anxious state I get stressed out easily and when I get stressed I get more anxious to do my thing (whatever it is at the time) which makes me more stressed and then I get angry at little things and suddenly I have a meltdown and either seclude myself or lash out at people for silly things.

I feel like a magnet is constantly sucking me toward whatever is on my mind at the time and every time my attention wavers from the task at hand it immediately snaps back to my activity. I remember watching the Temple Grandin movie and seeing the scene on the stairs when her mother is trying to get her to look away from the chandelier but as soon as mom removes her hand, the little girl’s heads snaps back to it.

Anyway, this has caused massive stress in my marriage and at work and while visiting family or friends etc but tonight I only truly came to the realization that my problem is being pulled away from my interest topic is what causes this 'irritated', 'stressed', 'nervous' (whatever it is) feeling all the time. I'm not saying that I am entitled to spending all day playing on the computer or anything I'm just saying that this is a stressor and the stress makes social niceties even more tiresome and creates problems.

I'm not sure if this has been asked before already, but why do NTs and even some Aspies (surprisingly) have to have an implicit meaning within everything? It's so frustrating that you have to always be cautious about what you say in order to not mistakenly affect someone else emotionally. I know that this causes a lot of drama and negative feelings between NTs, who are apparently not always perfect at judging how other people will emotionally react to what they say or do, either.

So what's the point? It doesn't seem to be worth it. Why can't everyone just take everything at its face value, and not make any judgements beyond that?