Autism in France: Psychoanalysis, Packing, Other Travesties
19 May 2013, 12:39 pm
manav95 wrote:
France really should modernize their approach.
Easier said than done. Despite some good intentions displayed by politicians (whatever their party, by the way), doctors already in place staunchly resist any change in their profession. So, wait and see...
20 May 2013, 9:53 pm
velocirapture wrote:
The conversation at this point reveals the limitations of current knowledge about autism spectrum disorders and attachment disorders. Part of the problem is that the diagnosis of attachment disorder requires trauma. You can take a set of symptoms and have it labeled ASD in the absence of trauma, but when there is a known trauma, that same set of symptoms may be labeled an attachment disorder. Are they truly mutually exclusive disorders? How does one account for the highly subjective nature of trauma? Must we develop a trauma scale to assist in diagnoses? If so, how would that even work? In addition, some of these diagnoses are age-sensitive, where a child under 5 is diagnosed with PDD temporarily, to see if the symptoms improve, worsen, or "clarify." What if they remain exactly the same? What if the symptoms present in some other way not described in the DSM?
I am not anti-psychiatry. Indeed, I probably would not function as well as I do without the years of help I received from mental health professionals. Rather, I think the limits of current knowledge should be tested and exposed regularly, so it is clear where the shortcomings exist and work can be done to remedy them. Clearly, the field of autism spectrum research is full of shortcomings, and the recent decision to remove Asperger's from the DSM highlights them.
I am not anti-psychiatry. Indeed, I probably would not function as well as I do without the years of help I received from mental health professionals. Rather, I think the limits of current knowledge should be tested and exposed regularly, so it is clear where the shortcomings exist and work can be done to remedy them. Clearly, the field of autism spectrum research is full of shortcomings, and the recent decision to remove Asperger's from the DSM highlights them.
The knowledge exist and it is not limited at all, but the therapists who diagnose PDD and attachment disorders often lack this knowledge; making many with attachment disorders getting an PDD diagnosis, and many with PDD an attachment disorder diagnosis. That is unfortunate.
One therapist I was in contact with told me that kids which was evaluated for symptoms as a result of abuse got an attachment disorder diagnosis, but that adults with the same symptoms which was evaluated with regards to abuse rather got a diagnosis of Asperger syndrome. According to that therapist, this was fairly common.
ICD-10 has the tools to differentiate between PDDs and attachment disorders, and the diagnoses are mutually exclusive disorders in ICD-10. With a known trauma, the procedure of checking for attachment disorder in ICD-10 should be follow so that one know for sure if that is the right diagnosis or not. Outside this the history of autism has such a clear and broad field of knowledge that it should not be a problem to understand why both attachment disorders and PDDs have been termed with autism, and what the similarities and differences are.
21 May 2013, 2:41 am
slovaksiren has obviously never been in a bar at closing time. or seen a homeless person's open air bathroom.
so..french think the mother's depression is the cause of autism? hmm...darwin and modern correlation analysis would instead seem to imply the apple doesn't fall from the tree. Most mothers of autistic children are also carrying a whole portfolio of dna markers for social skill/anxiety/depression weaknesses. Mine does...
21 May 2013, 3:08 pm
velocirapture wrote:
The conversation at this point reveals the limitations of current knowledge about autism spectrum disorders and attachment disorders. Part of the problem is that the diagnosis of attachment disorder requires trauma. You can take a set of symptoms and have it labeled ASD in the absence of trauma, but when there is a known trauma, that same set of symptoms may be labeled an attachment disorder. Are they truly mutually exclusive disorders? How does one account for the highly subjective nature of trauma? Must we develop a trauma scale to assist in diagnoses? If so, how would that even work? In addition, some of these diagnoses are age-sensitive, where a child under 5 is diagnosed with PDD temporarily, to see if the symptoms improve, worsen, or "clarify." What if they remain exactly the same? What if the symptoms present in some other way not described in the DSM?
I am not anti-psychiatry. Indeed, I probably would not function as well as I do without the years of help I received from mental health professionals. Rather, I think the limits of current knowledge should be tested and exposed regularly, so it is clear where the shortcomings exist and work can be done to remedy them. Clearly, the field of autism spectrum research is full of shortcomings, and the recent decision to remove Asperger's from the DSM highlights them.
I am not anti-psychiatry. Indeed, I probably would not function as well as I do without the years of help I received from mental health professionals. Rather, I think the limits of current knowledge should be tested and exposed regularly, so it is clear where the shortcomings exist and work can be done to remedy them. Clearly, the field of autism spectrum research is full of shortcomings, and the recent decision to remove Asperger's from the DSM highlights them.
Hi. This is a very well-thought out message. I would have responded sooner,but have kind of been mulling it over....Selection from your message.
Quote:
You can take a set of symptoms and have it labeled ASD in the absence of trauma, but when there is a known trauma, that same set of symptoms may be labeled an attachment disorder. Are they truly mutually exclusive disorders? How does one account for the highly subjective nature of trauma? Must we develop a trauma scale to assist in diagnoses? If so, how would that even work? In addition, some of these diagnoses are age-sensitive, where a child under 5 is diagnosed with PDD temporarily, to see if the symptoms improve, worsen, or "clarify." What if they remain exactly the same? What if the symptoms present in some other way not described in the DSM?
You make some extremely good points about trauma, and I would like to respond to that in the future......
There is a big problem with the DSM and the exploitive culture of tatus and financial gain seeking and general social ignorance that has developed around the publication of this book, and I would attribute a lot of this to the overly subjective nature of the industry behind it. It's not that a person shouldn't try to change the DSM and/or that there is not some functional value there,
Psychoanalytic theory, specifically object relations theory, in my opinion, can be very helpful; however a person does not necessarily need therapy to study that subject or to study oneself, though I think therapy could be in some instances be helpful, but it could also slow a person down and even keep him from ever getting real help or even be out and out harmful.
Quote:
Rather, I think the limits of current knowledge should be tested and exposed regularly, so it is clear where the shortcomings exist and work can be done to remedy them. Clearly, the field of autism spectrum research is full of shortcomings, and the recent decision to remove Asperger's from the DSM highlights them.
Imo that needs to happen, and there will be gradual changes over time to to well meaning effort,,but that it it is way too slow.
Why is packing in France happening? Because this is the kind of thing people do, their own various exotic versions of it, and it is happening everywhere (meaning in people's daily lives). I suggest to of course, for those who want to put their energy to ending packing in France to do that, as this is a worthy endeavor, no question, and I hope by writing here I will be part of that, but also, for those who are interested and can, to address this problem from the angle that we all are probably to some degree and in some way doing various form of this, both mental and in some ways even physical---namely packing.
22 May 2013, 1:20 am
Speaking about trauma and autism; it is known that those with small hippocampuses are much more likely to develop PTSD in situations where someone with an average hippocampus does not. Autistics in general have much smaller hippocampuses - not atrophied or shrunken but purely miniaturized with many smaller connections. This is why stress is so bad for us as it hurts the hippocampus.
By using "packing" in France they are traumatizing them. I can't figure out how they think it would benefit anyone at all. I wonder if it's misguided attempts to "scare them straight" or traumatize them to the point they develop AsPD as that's a more acceptable way to be? It's hard to be anxious in social situations if you're emotionally numb. Of course most wouldn't be so lucky...
When I learned SSRIs almost shut down the part in the brain that were already running slow because of depression - causing people to not have that many emotions so not crying as much - I realized that industry doesn't care how they go about getting people to look normal.
And re:SSRIs - it is only beneficial for short term use when feeling nothing would help, never never never for long-term use.
22 May 2013, 10:50 am
Anomiel wrote:
Speaking about trauma and autism; it is known that those with small hippocampuses are much more likely to develop PTSD in situations where someone with an average hippocampus does not. Autistics in general have much smaller hippocampuses - not atrophied or shrunken but purely miniaturized with many smaller connections. This is why stress is so bad for us as it hurts the hippocampus.
By using "packing" in France they are traumatizing them. I can't figure out how they think it would benefit anyone at all. I wonder if it's misguided attempts to "scare them straight" or traumatize them to the point they develop AsPD as that's a more acceptable way to be? It's hard to be anxious in social situations if you're emotionally numb. Of course most wouldn't be so lucky...
When I learned SSRIs almost shut down the part in the brain that were already running slow because of depression - causing people to not have that many emotions so not crying as much - I realized that industry doesn't care how they go about getting people to look normal.
And re:SSRIs - it is only beneficial for short term use when feeling nothing would help, never never never for long-term use.
By using "packing" in France they are traumatizing them. I can't figure out how they think it would benefit anyone at all. I wonder if it's misguided attempts to "scare them straight" or traumatize them to the point they develop AsPD as that's a more acceptable way to be? It's hard to be anxious in social situations if you're emotionally numb. Of course most wouldn't be so lucky...
When I learned SSRIs almost shut down the part in the brain that were already running slow because of depression - causing people to not have that many emotions so not crying as much - I realized that industry doesn't care how they go about getting people to look normal.
And re:SSRIs - it is only beneficial for short term use when feeling nothing would help, never never never for long-term use.
Hi Anomiel. This link addresses what you wrote about brain volume. It is actually not so cut and dried but kind iffy. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223073/ Scroll down till you get to STRUCTURAL IMAGING OF HIPPOCAMPUS, AMYGDALA, AND BASAL GANGLIA. So what are you trying to suggest here? That there is not an environmental factor, such as perhaps certain kinds of mothering, in how a child becomes autistic? Or that there may be some kind of genetic factors that interact with the environment in some way to produce autism? I think that there is a combinations of factors, but that people who are autistic (and all people) tend to have all kinds of stories about things, whatever fits into whatever their story already is, which story cannot be just that their brain works a certain way, as they way they have been conditioned to think or use thinking to avoid emotional pain is factored into the way they are thinking and this bias affects the way they are perceiving. An autistic person would have to observe himself to really get to the bottom of it all---for himself, but that requires an extraordinary degree of attention and also a real dedication. It would be good to have the support some dedicated others in doing this.
24 May 2013, 6:43 am
littlebee wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
Speaking about trauma and autism; it is known that those with small hippocampuses are much more likely to develop PTSD in situations where someone with an average hippocampus does not. Autistics in general have much smaller hippocampuses - not atrophied or shrunken but purely miniaturized with many smaller connections. This is why stress is so bad for us as it hurts the hippocampus.
By using "packing" in France they are traumatizing them. I can't figure out how they think it would benefit anyone at all. I wonder if it's misguided attempts to "scare them straight" or traumatize them to the point they develop AsPD as that's a more acceptable way to be? It's hard to be anxious in social situations if you're emotionally numb. Of course most wouldn't be so lucky...
When I learned SSRIs almost shut down the part in the brain that were already running slow because of depression - causing people to not have that many emotions so not crying as much - I realized that industry doesn't care how they go about getting people to look normal.
And re:SSRIs - it is only beneficial for short term use when feeling nothing would help, never never never for long-term use.
By using "packing" in France they are traumatizing them. I can't figure out how they think it would benefit anyone at all. I wonder if it's misguided attempts to "scare them straight" or traumatize them to the point they develop AsPD as that's a more acceptable way to be? It's hard to be anxious in social situations if you're emotionally numb. Of course most wouldn't be so lucky...
When I learned SSRIs almost shut down the part in the brain that were already running slow because of depression - causing people to not have that many emotions so not crying as much - I realized that industry doesn't care how they go about getting people to look normal.
And re:SSRIs - it is only beneficial for short term use when feeling nothing would help, never never never for long-term use.
Hi Anomiel. This link addresses what you wrote about brain volume. It is actually not so cut and dried but kind iffy. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223073/ Scroll down till you get to STRUCTURAL IMAGING OF HIPPOCAMPUS, AMYGDALA, AND BASAL GANGLIA. So what are you trying to suggest here? That there is not an environmental factor, such as perhaps certain kinds of mothering, in how a child becomes autistic? Or that there may be some kind of genetic factors that interact with the environment in some way to produce autism? I think that there is a combinations of factors, but that people who are autistic (and all people) tend to have all kinds of stories about things, whatever fits into whatever their story already is, which story cannot be just that their brain works a certain way, as they way they have been conditioned to think or use thinking to avoid emotional pain is factored into the way they are thinking and this bias affects the way they are perceiving. An autistic person would have to observe himself to really get to the bottom of it all---for himself, but that requires an extraordinary degree of attention and also a real dedication. It would be good to have the support some dedicated others in doing this.
Yes, it was a half-formed comment in many ways, sorry.
I gave the information so anyone that wishes can make the connections themselves as I'm not so sure myself what they are, and because I find it interesting. That there are natural factors does not exclude nurture, because I only present one of the factors does not mean the others do not exist.
Handbook of Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders wrote:
Hippocampal volume was found to be smaller in autistic subjects only after correction for total brain volume, which was larger in autistic subjects.
The word minituarized was slightly wrong, as it is small compared to the rest of the brain, but maybe not smaller than an NTs as they have smaller brains. A smaller hippocampus relative to total volume is correlated with audio processing disorder and autism, and a tendency to get traumatized is also correlated to having a small hippocampus relative to total volume (the specific study I read was about PTSD after traumatic events, but as any stress hurts the hippocampus we can assume it plays some role in other disorders that arise after trauma, but I do not know enough yet), and we have much more "immature connections" - that might say something about how we process the world if it looks so young ("immature").
http://legacy.autism.com/families/therapy/auditory.htm wrote:
We do not know the underlying reason for auditory processing problems in autism; however, autopsy research by Drs. Bauman and Kemper have shown that an area in the limbic system, the hippocampus, is neurologically immature in autistic individuals (Bauman & Kemper, 1994). The hippocampus is responsible for sensory input as well as learning and memory. Basically, information is transferred from the senses to the hippocampus, where it is processed and then transferred to areas of the cerebral cortex for long-term storage. Since auditory information is processed in the hippocampus, the information may not be properly transferred to long-term memory in autistic individuals.
Auditory processing problems may also be linked to several autistic characteristics. Autism is sometimes described as a social-communication problem. Processing auditory information is a critical component of social-communication. Other characteristics that may be associated with auditory processing problems include: anxiety or confusion in social situations, inattentiveness, and poor speech comprehension.
Interestingly, those individuals who do not have auditory processing problems are often ‘auditory learners.’ These children do very well using the Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) approach, whereas those who are visual learners do not do as well with this approach (McEachin, Smith and Lovaas, 1993). Given this, one might suspect that many visual learners have auditory processing problems and that visual learners will do quite well with a visual communication/instruction approach. It is also possible to provide visual support with ABA programs that have an auditory component. In this way, the visual learner can process the auditory information more easily.
Auditory processing problems may also be linked to several autistic characteristics. Autism is sometimes described as a social-communication problem. Processing auditory information is a critical component of social-communication. Other characteristics that may be associated with auditory processing problems include: anxiety or confusion in social situations, inattentiveness, and poor speech comprehension.
Interestingly, those individuals who do not have auditory processing problems are often ‘auditory learners.’ These children do very well using the Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) approach, whereas those who are visual learners do not do as well with this approach (McEachin, Smith and Lovaas, 1993). Given this, one might suspect that many visual learners have auditory processing problems and that visual learners will do quite well with a visual communication/instruction approach. It is also possible to provide visual support with ABA programs that have an auditory component. In this way, the visual learner can process the auditory information more easily.
They have actually done studies about something like the "refrigerator parent"- thing which showed children to "non-supportive" parents had smaller hippocampuses. But the children in the study who had that were already diagnosed with something! Which came first? Maybe the genes that made them so showed in their parents, so all they have proved then is that people with these genes might not raise their children like fully neurotypical people.
http://www.livescience.com/18196-maternal-support-child-brain.html wrote:
The research is part of an ongoing project to track the development of children with early onset depression. As part of the project, Luby and her colleagues previously measured the maternal support that children — who were ages 3 to 6 and had either symptoms of depression, other psychiatric disorders or no mental health problems — received during a so-called "waiting task."
The researchers placed mother and child in a room along with an attractively wrapped gift and a survey that the mother had to fill out. The children were told they could not open the present until five minutes had passed — basically until their mothers had finished the survey. A group of psychiatrists, who knew nothing about the children's health or the parents' temperaments, rated the amount of support the mothers gave to their children.
A mother who was very supportive, for example, would console her child, explaining that the child had only a few more minutes to wait and that she understands the situation was frustrating. "The task recapitulates what everyday life is like," Luby told LiveScience, meaning that it gives researchers an idea of how much support the child receives at home.
Now, four years later, the researchers gave MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) scans to 92 children who underwent the waiting task. Compared with non-depressed children with high maternal support, non-depressed children with low support had 9.2 percent smaller hippocampal volumes, while depressed children with high and low support had 6.0 and 10.6 percent smaller volumes, respectively.
The researchers placed mother and child in a room along with an attractively wrapped gift and a survey that the mother had to fill out. The children were told they could not open the present until five minutes had passed — basically until their mothers had finished the survey. A group of psychiatrists, who knew nothing about the children's health or the parents' temperaments, rated the amount of support the mothers gave to their children.
A mother who was very supportive, for example, would console her child, explaining that the child had only a few more minutes to wait and that she understands the situation was frustrating. "The task recapitulates what everyday life is like," Luby told LiveScience, meaning that it gives researchers an idea of how much support the child receives at home.
Now, four years later, the researchers gave MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) scans to 92 children who underwent the waiting task. Compared with non-depressed children with high maternal support, non-depressed children with low support had 9.2 percent smaller hippocampal volumes, while depressed children with high and low support had 6.0 and 10.6 percent smaller volumes, respectively.
My guess concerning RAD is that maybe some or all already were autistic, as we would be more likely to develop something like that. Or that we as autistics are very traumatized already too?
Like panicking and stimming when hearing an unexpected loud sound. What is this panic if not slight trauma? I did not recognize it as such until recently as it is so far from what is considered traumatizing. NTs actually DO stim too! But only when extremely traumatized so it is relatively rare!
There is also a unproven hypothesis that the hippocampus stops growing in response to trauma, as so many with different "disorders" have smaller hippocampuses compared to total brain volume. If so - and I do not know if it is correct, but you should know about it anyway - then someone could end up with brain proportions similar to us, and maybe that could cause some "autistic traits"?
But statistics show that neurodiverse people are much more likely to be abused than NTs.
All fields of science might be somewhat right, they just have to collaborate.
And this is off-topic concerning what I said about SSRIs:
I do not want someone to think that being that kind of emotionless would be preferable to feeling the pain of depression. The part of the brain that they affect does not only handle emotions, but also has something to do with empathy and moral. Every time I've been prescribed SSRIs I have been very very very depressed and as such it probably came to almost a complete stop. I don't take them anymore.
24 May 2013, 1:24 pm
Anomiel wrote in response to my last message:
Quote:
Yes, it was a half-formed comment in many ways, sorry.
I gave the information so anyone that wishes can make the connections themselves as I'm not so sure myself what they are, and because I find it interesting. That there are natural factors does not exclude nurture, because I only present one of the factors does not mean the others do not exist
I gave the information so anyone that wishes can make the connections themselves as I'm not so sure myself what they are, and because I find it interesting. That there are natural factors does not exclude nurture, because I only present one of the factors does not mean the others do not exist
Hi. Well, as anyone knows who has read my messages on wp, my major concern is that the view of the cause of autism is slanted way towards nature, and this very lopsided view is greatly adding to human suffering, as once a person locks into this position in his thinking, then the way he is processing data is going to kind of follow from that, so it becomes the basis of his thinking about himself and others and allows much less flexibility. I realize you are aware of this and how I might respond, so I see your post as being intended to open a door.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 051613.php
"Previously, researchers had attempted to use genetic approaches to help explain the biological basis of neuropsychiatric diseases, but genetics can only explain a small percentage of cases....." and "...Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are uniquely human diseases. Though some animal models exist for these diseases, animals cannot experience these diseases as we do, since they lack our language capacities, and the ability to represent feelings and ideas, their own and those of others, across time. These specifically human capabilities are encoded in specifically human neural networks, such as an emotional encoding network, found to be disrupted in mood disorders, such as depression and bipolar disorder, and the directed effort network which fails in schizophrenia...."
So, in short, do you think that the experience of the infant and the young child with the mother can play into the development of autism? I do, though I also think these psychoanalysts in France who are engaging in practices such as packing should be stopped. But why are so many people so upset with the idea of the refrigerator mother? Personally I do not like the terminology-- there is something quite wrong with it as a catch phrase, and I do not like the idea of not using a behavioral approach with young children who are autistic, of completely neglecting to do that because of some theory, but it seems to me there is a lot of wrong thinking on both ends. Why only a behavioral approach? That seems very off-base...and what I am seeing on WP is quite of lot of people who are blaming their lack of adjustment on their genes and on other people who are better adjusted (nt's), and to some degree a culture is being built around it. That is a terrible thing, and in my opinion probably as harmful to autistics, and even more harmful than packing in France. I do not know if I have the skills to address this topic and if anyone except maybe you is even interested, and that to me is very sad.
You wrote so much in your message I cannot cover it all, so will address later, but previously you wrote:
Quote:
By using "packing" in France they are traumatizing them. I can't figure out how they think it would benefit anyone at all. I wonder if it's misguided attempts to "scare them straight" or traumatize them to the point they develop AsPD as that's a more acceptable way to be? It's hard to be anxious in social situations if you're emotionally numb. Of course most wouldn't be so lucky...
I have tried and tried for some time before reading this to find an explanation on the internet or anywhere else. Interesting that there is this whole thread here, and, unless I have missed it, no one except you has questioned what kind of idea is behind the idea of packing. I finally did kind of figure out that it has something to do with brain function, encapsulation, and sort of trying to reset the switch..(This does not mean that it works or that they should be doing it)>
.
24 May 2013, 3:06 pm
littlebee wrote:
So, in short, do you think that the experience of the infant and the young child with the mother can play into the development of autism? I do, though I also think these psychoanalysts in France who are engaging in practices such as packing should be stopped. But why are so many people so upset with the idea of the refrigerator mother?
I believe that extreme introversion (autism) as the core symptom of a disorder may either be congenital or the result of trauma. I do also see the need of different classificatory classes on disorders with the core symptom of extreme introversion in regards to its treatment. Today it exist different classificatory classes in ICD-10 which also show the clear differences between the disorders. Autism as a result of trauma has social intact skills and the acted impaired social behavior may be treated in this kind of autism. Further does this kind of autism not engage in special interests and so.
The problem lies in acknowledging the two different disorders which share so many traits that ICD-10 was in need of making an own section to help the psychiatrists see the difference. Today some country has a low ratio of people born with autism and a high ratio of people having autism as a result of trauma, where other countries have a high ratio of people born with autism and a low ratio of people having autism as a result of trauma. These differences are connected to the confusion of the differences between the two disorders.
The use of the term autism by Bettelheim had its consequences; research on emotional abuse was neglected for around 30 years. The consequences of a mother calling his son an as*hole and telling him that he was a result of an accident, the consequences of a mother not being there when the daugther is in need of comfort and love, the consequences of treating one's kid with physical violence or death if it does not do what is asked, or the consequences when kids are encouraged to drink alcohol, deal drugs or shoplifting, are a few of the consequences which research neglected for a long time. All this kinds of behavior happens, and although refrigator mother is a rather old-fashioned words, research into it may give valueable information in a treatment situation of trauma. To be upset about that word is to show a lack of understanding for the historical use of the term autism and the existence of emotional abuse.
25 May 2013, 2:42 am
To Chris, my understanding is that the kind of trauma implicated by psychoanalysts in non-genetic forms of autism most probably is experienced by infants. I think the refrigerator mother is referring to a parenting style in that the mother is frozen off and cannot be intimate with and accepting of the child. The child may simply experience body tension, or maybe neglect---not being held intimately when fed, and also, such a child may has a certain kind of brain and/or is super sensitive, so because of these genetic factors may be more predisposed to respond to this kind of situation by encapsulating (himself within) different aspects of his own sensory experience, such as touch, to close himself off into a shell, away from the pain of being rejected, but it is mainly at a preverbal stage of development. To remember it would be possible, but very painful, almost unendurable. Basically the encapsulation probably serves as a protective device while at the same time representing to the child the mother the child is protecting itself from being hurt by (hurt because the mother is on some level rejecting it), so that is kind of a sickening and very terrible double bind...
Re the kind of trauma you mention---I think that would be more likely to result in various personality disorders.
I do not recall if I read it on this thread or on the open internet or both, but the reason many people resent the theory that the refrigerator mother is the cause is that then, especially in France, they do not take a behavioral approach at an early age, and the autistic child misses a window of opportunity to develop social skills,,,,a lot of this does have to do with ignorance or at least lopsided thinking on the part of French psychoanalysts, and these folks are f---ing rich because of their practices, so I can see why parents would get mad, if if the psychoanalysts are kind of right. But to really understand the phenomena of packing better I think it would be necessary to look at the actual French culture. They are sort of in a kind of autistic envelope themselves:-)
25 May 2013, 6:18 am
littlebee wrote:
To Chris, my understanding is that the kind of trauma implicated by psychoanalysts in non-genetic forms of autism most probably is experienced by infants. I think the refrigerator mother is referring to a parenting style in that the mother is frozen off and cannot be intimate with and accepting of the child. The child may simply experience body tension, or maybe neglect---not being held intimately when fed, and also, such a child may has a certain kind of brain and/or is super sensitive, so because of these genetic factors may be more predisposed to respond to this kind of situation by encapsulating (himself within) different aspects of his own sensory experience, such as touch, to close himself off into a shell, away from the pain of being rejected, but it is mainly at a preverbal stage of development. To remember it would be possible, but very painful, almost unendurable. Basically the encapsulation probably serves as a protective device while at the same time representing to the child the mother the child is protecting itself from being hurt by (hurt because the mother is on some level rejecting it), so that is kind of a sickening and very terrible double bind...
Re the kind of trauma you mention---I think that would be more likely to result in various personality disorders.
Re the kind of trauma you mention---I think that would be more likely to result in various personality disorders.
My understanding of refrigator mother is based upon the books of Bettelheim (The empty fortress, truants from life and love is not enough). It involve kids in different ages with different developments in life, but with the common of being emotionally abused. I do not believe those kids necessary has any more special brains or features, and the defence mechanisms of dissociation and autistic thinking is normal primitive defence mechanisms in all humans who experience serious trauma. Kids who experience serious trauma many times from an early age thought would have much higher risk than any others to develop an attachment disorder and later a personality disorder; which is seen as including attachment disorders as possible reasons.
Quote:
I do not recall if I read it on this thread or on the open internet or both, but the reason many people resent the theory that the refrigerator mother is the cause is that then, especially in France, they do not take a behavioral approach at an early age, and the autistic child misses a window of opportunity to develop social skills,,,,a lot of this does have to do with ignorance or at least lopsided thinking on the part of French psychoanalysts, and these folks are f---ing rich because of their practices, so I can see why parents would get mad, if if the psychoanalysts are kind of right. But to really understand the phenomena of packing better I think it would be necessary to look at the actual French culture. They are sort of in a kind of autistic envelope themselves:-)
You might be some right about this (I do not know France to its depth, only a few of the old french psychoanalysts who actively used the term autism and founded 'L'Evolution psychiatrique' which still exist by journal) , thought my experience is that many also reject the refrigator mother theory because they are afraid that they should be seen as bad and abusing parents. The most parents who has an autistic child are loving parents who never would abuse their kids, but the existence of similar symptoms in kids which has been abused make the use of autism as a term something which can easily be misunderstood and be very unfortunate.
02 Jun 2013, 2:11 pm
IChris wrote:
littlebee wrote:
To Chris, my understanding is that the kind of trauma implicated by psychoanalysts in non-genetic forms of autism most probably is experienced by infants. I think the refrigerator mother is referring to a parenting style in that the mother is frozen off and cannot be intimate with and accepting of the child. The child may simply experience body tension, or maybe neglect---not being held intimately when fed, and also, such a child may has a certain kind of brain and/or is super sensitive, so because of these genetic factors may be more predisposed to respond to this kind of situation by encapsulating (himself within) different aspects of his own sensory experience, such as touch, to close himself off into a shell, away from the pain of being rejected, but it is mainly at a preverbal stage of development. To remember it would be possible, but very painful, almost unendurable. Basically the encapsulation probably serves as a protective device while at the same time representing to the child the mother the child is protecting itself from being hurt by (hurt because the mother is on some level rejecting it), so that is kind of a sickening and very terrible double bind...
Re the kind of trauma you mention---I think that would be more likely to result in various personality disorders.
Re the kind of trauma you mention---I think that would be more likely to result in various personality disorders.
My understanding of refrigator mother is based upon the books of Bettelheim (The empty fortress, truants from life and love is not enough). It involve kids in different ages with different developments in life, but with the common of being emotionally abused. I do not believe those kids necessary has any more special brains or features, and the defence mechanisms of dissociation and autistic thinking is normal primitive defence mechanisms in all humans who experience serious trauma. Kids who experience serious trauma many times from an early age thought would have much higher risk than any others to develop an attachment disorder and later a personality disorder; which is seen as including attachment disorders as possible reasons.
Quote:
I do not recall if I read it on this thread or on the open internet or both, but the reason many people resent the theory that the refrigerator mother is the cause is that then, especially in France, they do not take a behavioral approach at an early age, and the autistic child misses a window of opportunity to develop social skills,,,,a lot of this does have to do with ignorance or at least lopsided thinking on the part of French psychoanalysts, and these folks are f---ing rich because of their practices, so I can see why parents would get mad, if if the psychoanalysts are kind of right. But to really understand the phenomena of packing better I think it would be necessary to look at the actual French culture. They are sort of in a kind of autistic envelope themselves:-)
You might be some right about this (I do not know France to its depth, only a few of the old french psychoanalysts who actively used the term autism and founded 'L'Evolution psychiatrique' which still exist by journal) , thought my experience is that many also reject the refrigator mother theory because they are afraid that they should be seen as bad and abusing parents. The most parents who has an autistic child are loving parents who never would abuse their kids, but the existence of similar symptoms in kids which has been abused make the use of autism as a term something which can easily be misunderstood and be very unfortunate.
Thanks for your insightful response-- but re
Quote:
I do not believe those kids necessary has any more special brains or features, and the defence mechanisms of dissociation and autistic thinking is normal primitive defence mechanisms in all humans who experience serious trauma.
I agree with your point about autistic thinking being a normal primitive defense mechanism, but also someone writing on this thread has brought up the question about what trauma actually is, and I think this is a very important to consider, plus there is a question about how genetic factors play into such a developmental disorder, and it is agreed by most if not all learning specialists that generally genetics does in some way play into it.
Re your comment above about France, for those who like to ponder, here is something to perhaps think about----the use of the term "refrigerator mother" in itself indicates to me a form of autism in the thinking of the kind of people who used that type of phraseology. Now if this appears to be a perplexing comment, what am I attempting to say here? Also, the way you use the term "loving parents" is a tad problematic, as it is really up for question what a loving parent is, and different people have different definitions of how a loving parent would actually treat his child. A parent may feel that he is loving, and yet, by the definition of loving by someone else, this parent may not be at all loving, but even malicious, though perhaps not consciously so...and also, yes,most people would agree on a certain definition of serious trauma as a certain degree of physical and emotional abuse, but an infant, for instance, might have a different kind of take on this.....
To those I have been interacting with on other threads and with whom some kind of bond has been formed, I have not had time to participate recently but I am thinking about you with affection and eventually will get back to those threads..Also, it takes a while, at least for me, to comprehensively digest any topic where ideas are being inquired into, as I have to kind of mull it over for a while and then test it out in my own life, and that generally does not happen overnight.
02 Jun 2013, 7:54 pm
littlebee wrote:
Anomiel wrote in response to my last message:
Hi. Well, as anyone knows who has read my messages on wp, my major concern is that the view of the cause of autism is slanted way towards nature, and this very lopsided view is greatly adding to human suffering, as once a person locks into this position in his thinking, then the way he is processing data is going to kind of follow from that, so it becomes the basis of his thinking about himself and others and allows much less flexibility. I realize you are aware of this and how I might respond, so I see your post as being intended to open a door.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 051613.php
"Previously, researchers had attempted to use genetic approaches to help explain the biological basis of neuropsychiatric diseases, but genetics can only explain a small percentage of cases....." and "...Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are uniquely human diseases. Though some animal models exist for these diseases, animals cannot experience these diseases as we do, since they lack our language capacities, and the ability to represent feelings and ideas, their own and those of others, across time. These specifically human capabilities are encoded in specifically human neural networks, such as an emotional encoding network, found to be disrupted in mood disorders, such as depression and bipolar disorder, and the directed effort network which fails in schizophrenia...."
So, in short, do you think that the experience of the infant and the young child with the mother can play into the development of autism? I do, though I also think these psychoanalysts in France who are engaging in practices such as packing should be stopped. But why are so many people so upset with the idea of the refrigerator mother? Personally I do not like the terminology-- there is something quite wrong with it as a catch phrase, and I do not like the idea of not using a behavioral approach with young children who are autistic, of completely neglecting to do that because of some theory, but it seems to me there is a lot of wrong thinking on both ends. Why only a behavioral approach? That seems very off-base...and what I am seeing on WP is quite of lot of people who are blaming their lack of adjustment on their genes and on other people who are better adjusted (nt's), and to some degree a culture is being built around it. That is a terrible thing, and in my opinion probably as harmful to autistics, and even more harmful than packing in France. I do not know if I have the skills to address this topic and if anyone except maybe you is even interested, and that to me is very sad.
You wrote so much in your message I cannot cover it all, so will address later, but previously you wrote:
I have tried and tried for some time before reading this to find an explanation on the internet or anywhere else. Interesting that there is this whole thread here, and, unless I have missed it, no one except you has questioned what kind of idea is behind the idea of packing. I finally did kind of figure out that it has something to do with brain function, encapsulation, and sort of trying to reset the switch..(This does not mean that it works or that they should be doing it)>
.
Quote:
Yes, it was a half-formed comment in many ways, sorry.
I gave the information so anyone that wishes can make the connections themselves as I'm not so sure myself what they are, and because I find it interesting. That there are natural factors does not exclude nurture, because I only present one of the factors does not mean the others do not exist
I gave the information so anyone that wishes can make the connections themselves as I'm not so sure myself what they are, and because I find it interesting. That there are natural factors does not exclude nurture, because I only present one of the factors does not mean the others do not exist
Hi. Well, as anyone knows who has read my messages on wp, my major concern is that the view of the cause of autism is slanted way towards nature, and this very lopsided view is greatly adding to human suffering, as once a person locks into this position in his thinking, then the way he is processing data is going to kind of follow from that, so it becomes the basis of his thinking about himself and others and allows much less flexibility. I realize you are aware of this and how I might respond, so I see your post as being intended to open a door.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 051613.php
"Previously, researchers had attempted to use genetic approaches to help explain the biological basis of neuropsychiatric diseases, but genetics can only explain a small percentage of cases....." and "...Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are uniquely human diseases. Though some animal models exist for these diseases, animals cannot experience these diseases as we do, since they lack our language capacities, and the ability to represent feelings and ideas, their own and those of others, across time. These specifically human capabilities are encoded in specifically human neural networks, such as an emotional encoding network, found to be disrupted in mood disorders, such as depression and bipolar disorder, and the directed effort network which fails in schizophrenia...."
So, in short, do you think that the experience of the infant and the young child with the mother can play into the development of autism? I do, though I also think these psychoanalysts in France who are engaging in practices such as packing should be stopped. But why are so many people so upset with the idea of the refrigerator mother? Personally I do not like the terminology-- there is something quite wrong with it as a catch phrase, and I do not like the idea of not using a behavioral approach with young children who are autistic, of completely neglecting to do that because of some theory, but it seems to me there is a lot of wrong thinking on both ends. Why only a behavioral approach? That seems very off-base...and what I am seeing on WP is quite of lot of people who are blaming their lack of adjustment on their genes and on other people who are better adjusted (nt's), and to some degree a culture is being built around it. That is a terrible thing, and in my opinion probably as harmful to autistics, and even more harmful than packing in France. I do not know if I have the skills to address this topic and if anyone except maybe you is even interested, and that to me is very sad.
You wrote so much in your message I cannot cover it all, so will address later, but previously you wrote:
Quote:
By using "packing" in France they are traumatizing them. I can't figure out how they think it would benefit anyone at all. I wonder if it's misguided attempts to "scare them straight" or traumatize them to the point they develop AsPD as that's a more acceptable way to be? It's hard to be anxious in social situations if you're emotionally numb. Of course most wouldn't be so lucky...
I have tried and tried for some time before reading this to find an explanation on the internet or anywhere else. Interesting that there is this whole thread here, and, unless I have missed it, no one except you has questioned what kind of idea is behind the idea of packing. I finally did kind of figure out that it has something to do with brain function, encapsulation, and sort of trying to reset the switch..(This does not mean that it works or that they should be doing it)>
.
You have to realize that I'm wary of discussing nurture at all - as for a long time those that even mentioned nurture spoke of that in exclusion to nature. Now I suspect that as we are so sensitive upbringing might play an even bigger role for us than other disorders, but I don't know how yet.
The "intense-world theory of autism" say it is our extreme sensory processing that is the likely culprit of our "autistic withdrawal". That is a form of nurture in a way... The only radical thing about that theory is that it claims that is the only reason (not even cause) for autism, and as such is wrong. But as our sensory processing is so extreme it is sometimes painful, maybe that pain also is a form of trauma? We'll have to stop measuring trauma after what hurts NTs.
I personally do not blame anyone or anything for me being autistic. I do not especially like the way any neurodiverse are treated however.
NTs are not well-adjusted. Society is made for them from the start - there is nothing to adjust from. Though I guess it is just semantics...
And re:packing - even though it's morally wrong, I had to know what they think they are doing before I can properly refute it, and I was curious. Thank you for giving me the answer.
05 Jun 2013, 4:52 pm
Anomiel wrote;
Quote:
You have to realize that I'm wary of discussing nurture at all - as for a long time those that even mentioned nurture spoke of that in exclusion to nature. Now I suspect that as we are so sensitive upbringing might play an even bigger role for us than other disorders, but I don't know how yet.
Actually there is one theory I read a couple of weeks ago from the psychoanalytic journal I found on autism, which theory I thought you would find find very interesting but did not have time yet to write about it, so briefly, from what I can recall: The theory is that perhaps because of some kind of sensory deficit, such as poor vision or hearing, a young child misses various cues and so kind of begins to make up his own story (version of reality) to account for that, and some of the input is kind of off-base due to missed cues, so his perception is to some degree out of synch with the perception of other people, and he kind of builds on his own story about the world, as does everyone, but his story contains some major discrepancy factors and as the story develops it makes him further and further apart from other people, and then he retreats (because no one understands his story:-) Very sad and touching....this is speaking of a young child here, and the way he may become isolated and eventually encapsulated into his own little reality.. I only read it once and am recounting it as I remember. So this would not be an object relations theory, but both theories could play into each other in terms of an explanation.
On a different note, I spent quite a long time yesterday studying some comments from the movie "the Wall," and will eventually try to write about the French approach to autism. Re packing---they perhaps had some success with that kind of approach, or at least think they did. This does not mean it is ultimately that effective or that they should do it,.but it is questionable if the whole approach of psychoanalysis to autism should be thrown out because of this any more than the Bible which contains some of the greatest spiritual writing of humanity should be thrown out because some wacko fundamentalists take allegorical material literally or because some of the mores of the culture that comes from are inhumane and/or archaic.
05 Jun 2013, 7:44 pm
littlebee wrote:
Anomiel wrote;
Actually there is one theory I read a couple of weeks ago from the psychoanalytic journal I found on autism, which theory I thought you would find find very interesting but did not have time yet to write about it, so briefly, from what I can recall: The theory is that perhaps because of some kind of sensory deficit, such as poor vision or hearing, a young child misses various cues and so kind of begins to make up his own story (version of reality) to account for that, and some of the input is kind of off-base due to missed cues, so his perception is to some degree out of synch with the perception of other people, and he kind of builds on his own story about the world, as does everyone, but his story contains some major discrepancy factors and as the story develops it makes him further and further apart from other people, and then he retreats (because no one understands his story:-) Very sad and touching....this is speaking of a young child here, and the way he may become isolated and eventually encapsulated into his own little reality.. I only read it once and am recounting it as I remember. So this would not be an object relations theory, but both theories could play into each other in terms of an explanation.
On a different note, I spent quite a long time yesterday studying some comments from the movie "the Wall," and will eventually try to write about the French approach to autism. Re packing---they perhaps had some success with that kind of approach, or at least think they did. This does not mean it is ultimately that effective or that they should do it,.but it is questionable if the whole approach of psychoanalysis to autism should be thrown out because of this any more than the Bible which contains some of the greatest spiritual writing of humanity should be thrown out because some wacko fundamentalists take allegorical material literally or because some of the mores of the culture that comes from are inhumane and/or archaic.
Quote:
You have to realize that I'm wary of discussing nurture at all - as for a long time those that even mentioned nurture spoke of that in exclusion to nature. Now I suspect that as we are so sensitive upbringing might play an even bigger role for us than other disorders, but I don't know how yet.
Actually there is one theory I read a couple of weeks ago from the psychoanalytic journal I found on autism, which theory I thought you would find find very interesting but did not have time yet to write about it, so briefly, from what I can recall: The theory is that perhaps because of some kind of sensory deficit, such as poor vision or hearing, a young child misses various cues and so kind of begins to make up his own story (version of reality) to account for that, and some of the input is kind of off-base due to missed cues, so his perception is to some degree out of synch with the perception of other people, and he kind of builds on his own story about the world, as does everyone, but his story contains some major discrepancy factors and as the story develops it makes him further and further apart from other people, and then he retreats (because no one understands his story:-) Very sad and touching....this is speaking of a young child here, and the way he may become isolated and eventually encapsulated into his own little reality.. I only read it once and am recounting it as I remember. So this would not be an object relations theory, but both theories could play into each other in terms of an explanation.
On a different note, I spent quite a long time yesterday studying some comments from the movie "the Wall," and will eventually try to write about the French approach to autism. Re packing---they perhaps had some success with that kind of approach, or at least think they did. This does not mean it is ultimately that effective or that they should do it,.but it is questionable if the whole approach of psychoanalysis to autism should be thrown out because of this any more than the Bible which contains some of the greatest spiritual writing of humanity should be thrown out because some wacko fundamentalists take allegorical material literally or because some of the mores of the culture that comes from are inhumane and/or archaic.
That's very fascinating, and new to me. Thanks for sharing.
Autistics often have very sharp senses - in auditory processing disorder the problems are with the understanding of (some) sounds, most commonly speech. Though that might give the same result.
I've read some about visual hallucinations caused by sight-problems - the brain doesn't get enough visual input so it starts creating some by itself. I wonder if extreme boredom of other senses can do the same - maybe each of us have our own limit where that happens? That is of course different than the story of misunderstandings, though it's similar.
Here's a video of the paranoia that can come from missing too many cues:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1izup2uX3U[/youtube]
You've said before that France is in their own autistic enclosure, so is The Wall like an autistic person or France?
It is true they are not that keen on integration with the rest of Europe (or the world). I suspect possible packing-induced "improvements" have only happened in people that would do anything to get away from that - even pretend that they are "cured".
I dislike organized religion, but I don't care if someone wants to read the Bible - though I like the quotes attributed to Buddha better myself.
06 Jun 2013, 2:17 pm
Hi Anomiel. Will reply to the rest of your message later, but this sort of grabbed my attention:
Quote:
You've said before that France is in their own autistic enclosure, so is The Wall like an autistic person or France?
Ha ha...you put so much in so little:-) Well I think the way the brain works is to make these encapsulations around different conceptual sets or frameworks, be they simple or complex---has to do with left brain and right brain...I think it is natural to do it, but in a particular person such as an autistic child or a group of psychoanalysts it can go overboard..... I did not see the film, The Wall, but would sure like to....it seems from what I have read that the objection by the psychoanalysts is that their comments were edited so as to present a point of view that slants and distorts their actual perspective. I have no idea if this is true, but in general it is what people do. Now if the aim of doing so is to stop something that is perceived as causing human suffering and so is harmful and bad and which should be stopped, things can still get out of shape and contexts distorted, ultimately not for the greater good. Of course people want to stop particular instances of suffering, and they should, but I do suggest to not get eaten by the particulars.Much more on this later.
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