How do you feel about "invisible" autistics?

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01 Aug 2016, 12:25 pm

I'm one of those invisible ones that unless you put me in a stressful situation you might never know that I have difficulties but I seriously do have difficulties. Poor coordination, strabismus, myoclonus, bowel control issues when stressed with even minor things. For the most part they remain hidden though.



paradox_puree
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01 Aug 2016, 12:36 pm

Doctors don't know everything. Autism is just a label for a big circle they drew around a bunch of symptoms and behaviors that they see as clustering together. Your experience is your experience. A doctor saying you fit a particular diagnostic criteria or not says only that you are on one side or the other of this circle, in their professional and highly knowledgeable opinion.

I am slightly skeptical about the idea of "official" diagnosis being the only way to fit any medical label. It's certainly helpful, absolutely. But you don't need to be diagnosed with everything by a person with a PhD. I have alopecia universalis, and wasn't diagnosed with it for years after the onset, but I knew about it and talked about having it. I didn't say "I probably have alopecia universalis" when my body had rejected all the hair on my body. Self-diagnosis was reasonable in that case. Of course, it was a good idea to talk to the doctor to confirm that it wasn't something else going on, which I eventually did and had my self-diagnosis confirmed.

I think it's okay to diagnose yourself and refine that diagnosis over time with more information, more knowledgable people, etc. The doctor doesn't make it real. They just add confidence to it. You as a lay person are pretty likely to be wrong about stuff like this, because you don't know all the less popular conditions that may have things in common with your experiences. The doctor is less likely to be wrong because of their vast experience and knowledge, but even they can be wrong. It's all about increasing confidence.

Myself? I may or may not be inside that big circle they drew, but I definitely have some characteristics that put me near it, at the very least. Learning about it and talking about it is useful for helping me deal better, like learning techniques for managing my constant fidgeting. I may or may not ever seek "official" diagnosis, but I'm not going to stop relating to people and talking about my issues. I don't think I see anyone suggesting that here, just saying that the label requires a doctor to apply, which I think is... understandable, but not something I wholly agree with.

Because I am not diagnosed, by a doctor or by my self, I typically say "I have autistic traits" or "I am probably autistic." or "I am ~autistic." If it becomes relevant to the interaction I'm having, I talk about my various personal needs, like my issues with audio processing, face blindness, literal language, noise sensitivity, fidgety-ness, etc.

I fully understand that as a person who is still just exploring this idea and just beginning to work with a therapist on it, I have little social legitimacy, knowledge, etc. to speak on the subject, so ignore me as you feel appropriate. I just felt like providing my opinion. *shrugs*



ArielsSong
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01 Aug 2016, 12:45 pm

paradox_puree wrote:
Doctors don't know everything. Autism is just a label for a big circle they drew around a bunch of symptoms and behaviors that they see as clustering together. Your experience is your experience. A doctor saying you fit a particular diagnostic criteria or not says only that you are on one side or the other of this circle, in their professional and highly knowledgeable opinion.

I am slightly skeptical about the idea of "official" diagnosis being the only way to fit any medical label. It's certainly helpful, absolutely. But you don't need to be diagnosed with everything by a person with a PhD. I have alopecia universalis, and wasn't diagnosed with it for years after the onset, but I knew about it and talked about having it. I didn't say "I probably have alopecia universalis" when my body had rejected all the hair on my body. Self-diagnosis was reasonable in that case. Of course, it was a good idea to talk to the doctor to confirm that it wasn't something else going on, which I eventually did and had my self-diagnosis confirmed.

I think it's okay to diagnose yourself and refine that diagnosis over time with more information, more knowledgable people, etc. The doctor doesn't make it real. They just add confidence to it. You as a lay person are pretty likely to be wrong about stuff like this, because you don't know all the less popular conditions that may have things in common with your experiences. The doctor is less likely to be wrong because of their vast experience and knowledge, but even they can be wrong. It's all about increasing confidence.

Myself? I may or may not be inside that big circle they drew, but I definitely have some characteristics that put me near it, at the very least. Learning about it and talking about it is useful for helping me deal better, like learning techniques for managing my constant fidgeting. I may or may not ever seek "official" diagnosis, but I'm not going to stop relating to people and talking about my issues. I don't think I see anyone suggesting that here, just saying that the label requires a doctor to apply, which I think is... understandable, but not something I wholly agree with.

Because I am not diagnosed, by a doctor or by my self, I typically say "I have autistic traits" or "I am probably autistic." or "I am ~autistic." If it becomes relevant to the interaction I'm having, I talk about my various personal needs, like my issues with audio processing, face blindness, literal language, noise sensitivity, fidgety-ness, etc.

I fully understand that as a person who is still just exploring this idea and just beginning to work with a therapist on it, I have little social legitimacy, knowledge, etc. to speak on the subject, so ignore me as you feel appropriate. I just felt like providing my opinion. *shrugs*


I think this explains my opinion better than I have been doing!



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01 Aug 2016, 12:54 pm

A lot of self-diagnosed people say that they are autistic or have autism without saying that they self-diagnosed.
This is based on some people I know offline, and others online.
Offline, most self-diagnosed people don't say that they self-diagnosed with autism, most of the self-diagnosed people I have met say that they have autism or are autistic without diagnosis.
It is only through asking are you diagnosed that one would know that they are not diagnosed.


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Forester
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01 Aug 2016, 1:14 pm

FWIW, in my own experience with coming to the realization I was very probably autistic and getting a diagnosis (I am now diagnosed as autistic) my perception was that the entire process was more subjective than objective.

Even the professional diagnosing me seemed to be subjectively interpreting my personal story and reasons for thinking I was autistic, the test results and the degree to which it interfered with my ability to lead a normal life (my disability).

From the initial diagnosis itself to determining where are on the spectrum I sit it all seemed to be a hazy and subjective eductated guess.

Given that, it seems that even with a diagnosis absolute certainty is impossible to achieve.

I do understand the feeling that without a diagnosis it might seem unfair to label oneself as autistic, but I don't feel a diagnosis in and of itself adds anything more than confirmation.

From my personal experience, all a diagnosis did was make me say to myself "either I am fooling myself and the doctor, or I am autistic". Leaving me no more confident in my original self diagnosis than I was pre-diagnosis aside from having confirmation that a professional 'thinks' I am autisic too.

My wife on the other hand needed that diagnosis to feel certain I was autistic. Feel being the operative word, though she would probably say she now 'knows' I am autistic.

For myself, I have accepted the inherent uncertainty I percieve and am comfortable saying I am autistic. Though I would not have been as comfortable saying that pre-diagnosis, if someone had asked me I probably would have said 'I am autistic' rather than 'I suspect I am autistic' rather than create confusion in the listeners mind.



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01 Aug 2016, 1:27 pm

This is exactly what I experience, verbatim. I don't go to social gatherings if I can help it, however, if it is a situation such as a special occasion for someone who means very much to me, and I do, to them, I will request that they give me a task, or multiple tasks to do. I literally cannot stand being in the position that you had so perfectly described. It is so uncomfortable, as I cannot find my place, nor do I try, nor do I want to, nor do I do well being bored out of my mind.

lostonearth35 wrote:
I'm a female aspie who wasn't diagnosed until adulthood, so I know all about being invisible. If you're female it's like you really are invisible. Especially when I'm at a social gathering and everyone is talking to each other but not to me, and they don't notice my restlessness and boredom, even when I start to wander all over the place trying to find something at least somewhat interesting. They wouldn't even notice if I left, nor would they care. I have absolutely no reason for existing at their "fun" event.



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01 Aug 2016, 1:41 pm

Forester wrote:
My wife on the other hand needed that diagnosis to feel certain I was autistic. Feel being the operative word, though she would probably say she now 'knows' I am autistic.


This is it. You can know the truth of your situation, but other people can't. People are not trusted to know themselves from an objective viewpoint.

Other people will need you to have that formal diagnosis to be convinced that you actually are autistic (though, those that know you very well will need much less convincing).

And this goes back to my point about saying that you're autistic whilst not being formally diagnosed. I fail to see how this is a positive thing because I can't imagine that people would take you seriously for saying it - unless you had a long time to go into your reasons for self-diagnosis.

There is nothing stopping me from telling companies that I need accommodations because I'm autistic, but it feels wrong for me to do that without the diagnosis. I feel that I would not be believed and would be considered to be being 'difficult' or making their jobs harder. Of course, if I say the same thing this time next week and I'm formally diagnosed, I suppose the same companies would still think the same things - they wouldn't know on either occasion whether I had actually been diagnosed.



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01 Aug 2016, 1:57 pm

ArielsSong wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
ArielsSong wrote:
I cannot understand why you would think that:

1) I am dictating how anyone else should behave.
2) I am discriminating.


I cannot understand why you would think that:

1) I am dictating how anyone else should behave.

Perhaps I mis-spoke? I understood you to say you agreed with btbnnyr's belief that people, in the forum and everyday life, who felt they were on the spectrum, but did not have a professional diagnosis, must announce (in the preferred manner) to those they want to converse with, that they are different somehow.

2) I am discriminating.

If i'm wrong in my above assumption (I always get in trouble with those) and instead you're the kind of a person who likes to keep your private concerns to yourself, and don't want to single out anyone for what you deem "proper attention" then I certainly apologize for misconstruing your earlier comment. And in this case you are obviously not discriminating against those you see as "different."



I see. I believe there has been a misunderstanding but it possibly stems from my incorrect reading of btbnnyr's original comment.

As I understood it, btbnnyr was not saying that people had to point out constantly that they were self-diagnosed, but that they would be misrepresenting autism to specifically say "I am autistic". But, my thought was that this kind of instance would not usually occur. I couldn't imagine anyone saying "I am autistic" in their real life conversations, unless they were diagnosed.

I talk frequently (here on the forum, not so much in real life) about my 'autistic experiences'. At home, I explain struggles to my husband with "it's an autism thing" to help him understand things that I'm going through. On the forum I often talk about my experience and I certainly don't feel that I would need to preface anything with "I'm not diagnosed yet" (I often do this, but don't feel that it's something that I should do), but I cannot imagine a situation where I would comfortably say "I'm autistic", straight out like that, without feeling like I'm saying something untrue. I a 99.9% sure I am, but I feel it wouldn't be accurate of me to say "I am, definitely".

However, I do not have any issue with doing so if that's their choice. I simply understand btbnnyr's perspective that to say it would be 'misrepresenting'.

I certainly hope that I haven't sounded discriminatory after this. As a self-diagnosed autistic person who, for a significant amount of time did not plan to be diagnose, I fully understand knowing that you are autistic without wanting/needing/getting a diagnosis and do not think that this is any different to being diagnosed as autistic. You either are, or you aren't, and self-diagnosis should not stop make any difference to 'community' inclusion. I was simply confused that self-diagnosed people felt comfortable going around saying "I'm autistic" in 'the real world'.


You shouldn't be confused. If I'm 100% certain I'm on the spectrum, why wouldn't I?

Perhaps I, and others, may have more confidence in our testing? Everyone is different. I'm saying those who may be less sure of their own testing shouldn't try to project their uncertainty on to others by trying to hang an albatross (or some other token) on these people's necks, so they can be marked as "self diagnosed" and different from everyone else....that's called "exclusion." That's just plain cruel.



Last edited by ZenDen on 01 Aug 2016, 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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01 Aug 2016, 2:12 pm

Britte wrote:
This is exactly what I experience, verbatim. I don't go to social gatherings if I can help it, however, if it is a situation such as a special occasion for someone who means very much to me, and I do, to them, I will request that they give me a task, or multiple tasks to do. I literally cannot stand being in the position that you had so perfectly described. It is so uncomfortable, as I cannot find my place, nor do I try, nor do I want to, nor do I do well being bored out of my mind.

lostonearth35 wrote:
I'm a female aspie who wasn't diagnosed until adulthood, so I know all about being invisible. If you're female it's like you really are invisible. Especially when I'm at a social gathering and everyone is talking to each other but not to me, and they don't notice my restlessness and boredom, even when I start to wander all over the place trying to find something at least somewhat interesting. They wouldn't even notice if I left, nor would they care. I have absolutely no reason for existing at their "fun" event.


ME TOO! I'd go crazy...so I made up a job for myself: Family/company photographer. Always on the move, always BEHIND the camera. This kept me busy and incidentally led to some small/ short lasting (some longer), money making jobs and ideas. I never became "Mr.Popularity" but what I had was controlled by me, at my own pace...I liked that.

With all the smart phone cameras now I don't know if that idea would be as viable.



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01 Aug 2016, 2:18 pm

I have a tendency to disappear into the woodwork myself during social gatherings (I haven't attended one in a while).

I have no ability in photography--so that's out. Nor in decorating the house or something.

My best role is as the person who seeks out evidently lonely people so that they'll have someone to talk to.



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01 Aug 2016, 2:34 pm

ArielsSong wrote:
Forester wrote:
My wife on the other hand needed that diagnosis to feel certain I was autistic. Feel being the operative word, though she would probably say she now 'knows' I am autistic.


This is it. You can know the truth of your situation, but other people can't. People are not trusted to know themselves from an objective viewpoint.

Other people will need you to have that formal diagnosis to be convinced that you actually are autistic (though, those that know you very well will need much less convincing).

And this goes back to my point about saying that you're autistic whilst not being formally diagnosed. I fail to see how this is a positive thing because I can't imagine that people would take you seriously for saying it - unless you had a long time to go into your reasons for self-diagnosis.

There is nothing stopping me from telling companies that I need accommodations because I'm autistic, but it feels wrong for me to do that without the diagnosis. I feel that I would not be believed and would be considered to be being 'difficult' or making their jobs harder. Of course, if I say the same thing this time next week and I'm formally diagnosed, I suppose the same companies would still think the same things - they wouldn't know on either occasion whether I had actually been diagnosed.


Hi ArielsSong,

You said: "This is it. You can know the truth of your situation, but other people can't. People are not trusted to know themselves from an objective viewpoint." This would be your interpretation, others may feel differently. Do not assume everyone thinks this way.

When I've spoken with people no one asked me if a professional made the diagnosis......perhaps if I was looking for some type of accommodation, then I might feel the need for a formal diagnosis. But otherwise??? I think most people just mind their own business and aren't interested.

Please remember I spent my life running head-on into the social walls others, and you yourself, struggle with every day. But since there were no "accommodations" then, you were just expected to do the best you could or leave; so the concept of using a disability to gain an advantage or assistance is totally foreign to me. Everyone is not like you.



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01 Aug 2016, 2:47 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I have a tendency to disappear into the woodwork myself during social gatherings (I haven't attended one in a while).

I have no ability in photography--so that's out. Nor in decorating the house or something.

My best role is as the person who seeks out evidently lonely people so that they'll have someone to talk to.


Hi Kraftie :D ,

When I started taking pictures I wasn't experienced either. No one paid me for my family photos or for the pix I took at company functions. I gave them away to people; that worked out well. I had to make the effort by myself. When you're not being paid the critical evaluation of your photos is yours alone....I liked that too.

When I was doing manual labor I'd sometimes take photos.......someone saw some which lead to the best job I ever had in my life....and photography was a part of it....the job lasted 8 years. :D



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01 Aug 2016, 3:13 pm

Sounds like you put your nose to the grindstone.....I have to do that more!



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01 Aug 2016, 3:47 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Sounds like you put your nose to the grindstone.....I have to do that more!


:D OK, so the photography thing started in 1966, when our first child was born. I didn't have a camera, so bought one, and when I arrived at the hospital it was in an uproar as they were hosting a simulated response to a major catastrophe....and I got involved (you know how special interests can bloom :D ) and one thing lead to another....thanks to my special interests. The use of my camera in front of my (social) face came later.

When you live your life with your nose against that grindstone, you learn how to take advantage of everything you can.



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01 Aug 2016, 3:50 pm

ZenDen wrote:
ArielsSong wrote:
Forester wrote:
My wife on the other hand needed that diagnosis to feel certain I was autistic. Feel being the operative word, though she would probably say she now 'knows' I am autistic.


This is it. You can know the truth of your situation, but other people can't. People are not trusted to know themselves from an objective viewpoint.

Other people will need you to have that formal diagnosis to be convinced that you actually are autistic (though, those that know you very well will need much less convincing).

And this goes back to my point about saying that you're autistic whilst not being formally diagnosed. I fail to see how this is a positive thing because I can't imagine that people would take you seriously for saying it - unless you had a long time to go into your reasons for self-diagnosis.

There is nothing stopping me from telling companies that I need accommodations because I'm autistic, but it feels wrong for me to do that without the diagnosis. I feel that I would not be believed and would be considered to be being 'difficult' or making their jobs harder. Of course, if I say the same thing this time next week and I'm formally diagnosed, I suppose the same companies would still think the same things - they wouldn't know on either occasion whether I had actually been diagnosed.


Hi ArielsSong,

You said: "This is it. You can know the truth of your situation, but other people can't. People are not trusted to know themselves from an objective viewpoint." This would be your interpretation, others may feel differently. Do not assume everyone thinks this way.

When I've spoken with people no one asked me if a professional made the diagnosis......perhaps if I was looking for some type of accommodation, then I might feel the need for a formal diagnosis. But otherwise??? I think most people just mind their own business and aren't interested.

Please remember I spent my life running head-on into the social walls others, and you yourself, struggle with every day. But since there were no "accommodations" then, you were just expected to do the best you could or leave; so the concept of using a disability to gain an advantage or assistance is totally foreign to me. Everyone is not like you.


Your situation sounds the same as mine, actually. However, I just can't understand why there would be times when you are telling people that you're autistic, unless you are seeking some kind of accommodation for it? I don't tend to go around telling people about the specific details of who I am, so I'm simply confused how this could come up in conversation without being 'for a reason'. If these people, such as yourself, are not looking for some type of accommodation (and therefore don't feel that they need a formal diagnosis, which is a totally valid and understandable perspective), why are they announcing autism at all to people that presumably are outside of their immediate family/friendship groups?



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01 Aug 2016, 5:12 pm

There's a guy here who recently wrote a book about his life. I don't remember his screen name offhand---but his avatar has a moose within it. One of his great "special interests" happens to be film photography (i.e., pre-digital photography).

I remember how much a big deal the Polaroid Swinger was in 1967. I think my parents got it as a gift from someone else. I wrote something on the instruction manual; I could barely write even when I was just about to turn 7.