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Once AS becomes "woke"

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CockneyRebel
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21 Jan 2021, 11:00 pm

I think that racism will always be around.


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cyberdad
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21 Jan 2021, 11:17 pm

I think prejudice will always be around but people can learn to not rely on the tendency to judge people based on surface appearances.



CockneyRebel
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22 Jan 2021, 12:39 am

cyberdad wrote:
I think prejudice will always be around but people can learn to not rely on the tendency to judge people based on surface appearances.


I look forward to the day that people realize this.


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League_Girl
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22 Jan 2021, 1:00 am

cyberdad wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I knew racism was still around, I just thought those people were rare. Now I am sad to see racism is very common in the US and I totally disagreed when people thought people had gotten more racist after Trump was elected into office and I knew then, "No, they just came out of their closet."


A few things happened
1. Trump blew a dog-whistle to right-wing types in order to sure up his support base
2. People who always existed with right wing beliefs felt emboldened to come out in public and these are the MAGAs
3. The left now have at their disposal the means to film these jokers and upload media to the WWW in a matter of seconds
4. The MAGAs, police, armed forces and others got caught on film saying and doing racist things

In some ways Trump may have done society a favour by drawing out racism that was hiding just beneath the surface.



I still have a hard time believing how one can support that man and not be racist. All I see are deniers when they deny anything he says and make excuses. But at least some of them are honest on why they support him despite being a self aware wolf.


Yes its hard to believe people when they say they support Trump but don't believe he's racist. The only conciliatory thing I can say is many people are insensitive and put blinkers not caring what Trump says and focused only on themselves.


Racists don't know they are racist so is it really surprising if they don't think he is one?


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22 Jan 2021, 1:03 am

League_Girl wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I knew racism was still around, I just thought those people were rare. Now I am sad to see racism is very common in the US and I totally disagreed when people thought people had gotten more racist after Trump was elected into office and I knew then, "No, they just came out of their closet."


A few things happened
1. Trump blew a dog-whistle to right-wing types in order to sure up his support base
2. People who always existed with right wing beliefs felt emboldened to come out in public and these are the MAGAs
3. The left now have at their disposal the means to film these jokers and upload media to the WWW in a matter of seconds
4. The MAGAs, police, armed forces and others got caught on film saying and doing racist things

In some ways Trump may have done society a favour by drawing out racism that was hiding just beneath the surface.



I still have a hard time believing how one can support that man and not be racist. All I see are deniers when they deny anything he says and make excuses. But at least some of them are honest on why they support him despite being a self aware wolf.


Yes its hard to believe people when they say they support Trump but don't believe he's racist. The only conciliatory thing I can say is many people are insensitive and put blinkers not caring what Trump says and focused only on themselves.


Racists don't know they are racist so is it really surprising if they don't think he is one?


Plenty of them know full well they are racist and are just faking ignorance about it.


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22 Jan 2021, 2:42 am

KT67 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
KT67 wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I'll be happy when the Woke movement is over.


Unless you're Kelvin Garrah - be careful what you wish for.

A lot of what people call 'Woke' is just 'not being a dick to LGBT people'.


And there is nothing wrong with being woke. Being woke just means being tolerant of minorities and being anti racist and being in favor of letting them have the same rights as straight cis male whites. Not being so ignorant of racism and oppression they face.


Most examples of 'woke' look like virtue-signalling.
Virtue-signalling = :eew:


Better to signal lack of virtue? :lol:

Gosh dangit.


Beter to be objective, rational and mature. 8)



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22 Jan 2021, 2:45 am

theprisoner wrote:
depends on how you define virtue. virtue is a word. it's supposed to point to something.

Quote:
Virtue is a kind of health, beauty and good habit of the soul —Plato


in different eras, virtue has taken on different meanings. to some virtue may be "turning the other cheek", to others it may be a cause to action. violent action. (how many people have died in the name of defending virtue?)

virtue is a symbolic concept held in the mind of a person, connected to their framework of values, emotional feelings.

what you consider a signal of virtue maybe considered sign of evil to another. its all very subjective. so temperamental. its almost if humans just copy their peer groups without thinking, like how a bird imitates the melody of its specific species.

I think one of the reasons the world experiences conflict, is nobody can agree to what virtue or "good" is. there is no "universal" church yet established. and various splintered factions want to enforce their own specific idea of virtue on the rest. by any means necessary sometimes. which only leads to the neverending bloodbath that is human civilization.


The word "Virtue", in itself, is benign.
The word "Signalling" in itself, is benign.
But I am pretty sure the combination of "Virtue-signalling" has rather odious connotations, I am afraid. 8)



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22 Jan 2021, 2:57 am

OutsideView wrote:
Pepe wrote:
It involves moral superiority, sanctimony, self-righteousness.
It is used as a weapon of psychological intimidation and is usually coupled with groupthink mob-ruling.
It is a "Look at me, look at me, I am better than you" syndrome.
How can that be anything other than bad? :scratch:

The discrepancy might come down to definition. I see virtue signalling as literally someone signalling their virtue without any of the other stuff you mentioned. Rather than "Look at me, look at me, I am better than you" I'd say it was "I'm better than some people so please think of me positively". Like people using "SWJ" as an insult, how can fighting for justice be a bad thing?


Yes, like SJW.
They both have poor connotations.
Quote:
connotation
noun
plural noun: connotations

an idea or feeling which a word invokes for a person in addition to its literal or primary meaning.



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22 Jan 2021, 3:01 am

Dear_one wrote:
^^ The distribution of sympathy is never uniform, and can be easily skewed. Until recently, sharks were almost universally loathed, feared, and attacked. Now, some people find that they can be treated like pets, and show appreciation. Baby seals get lots of people worried, because seals, who hunt in the dark ocean, have large eyes, making their infants even more appealing. So, the impact of our industrial fishing falls even harder on the endangered sea birds, out of sight. Panda bears would be pretty boring if they didn't resemble babies - big eyed, clumsy, and round.

The same principles apply to humans. A young, blonde, female missing from a hike will get a lot more attention than a plain, 50 yr old man would. Other groups come in and out of fashion, but there is always an element of novelty helping them, while the boring old majority gets blamed for everything.


Moral of the story: Don't go hiking if you are a 50 yr old man, or older.



cyberdad
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22 Jan 2021, 3:14 am

League_Girl wrote:
Racists don't know they are racist so is it really surprising if they don't think he is one?


I tend to agree with Sweetleaf that racists fully know they are racist. It's like people who claim to be open minded but in reality they are repulsed by people with disability, gays or even the poor/homeless.

Back in the mid 1990s I worked in an upmarket advertising firm and the jocks who worked there would stand in front of the panoramic tinted window overlooking the street watching passerby (oblivious they were being ogled). Their favourite pass-time during tea time and lunch was to rate the people walking past based on the type of clothes they were wearing. They openly despised people who wore cheap suites/shoes or what they described as Target/Kmart clothes. They also rated girls and were openly misogynistic and racist.

In meetings they were the sweetest/polite young men but their upper middle class upbringing leaked out sufficiently often to reveal how they really felt.



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22 Jan 2021, 3:17 am

Re: Virtue Signalling. AFAIR, the Bible advises Virtue Secrecy - If you do good with your right hand, don't even tell your left hand about it. Of course, that tends to leave God with more credit for happy happenings.

There is a story about a Rabbi who went to the temple to pray aloud "Oh, Lord, compared to you, I am nothing. Nothing!"

Seeing this a lawyer then prayed "Oh, Lord, compared to you, I am nothing. Nothing!"
The janitor, coming in to clean, was also inspired to pray "Oh, Lord, compared to you, I am nothing. Nothing!"
The lawyer nudged the Rabbi, and whispered "Now look who thinks he's nothing!"



Last edited by Dear_one on 22 Jan 2021, 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

Pepe
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22 Jan 2021, 3:23 am

League_Girl wrote:
I remember being surprised when people thought racism didn't happen anymore. Ignorance is a bliss and congratulations for never living in a area where people are outward with their racism. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest so I never saw any racism growing up. That was because I lived in a mostly white area and it never occurred to me to judge people by their race and connect any of their behaviors to race so I never got to stereotype them.

I knew racism was still around, I just thought those people were rare. Now I am sad to see racism is very common in the US and I totally disagreed when people thought people had gotten more racist after Trump was elected into office and I knew then, "No, they just came out of their closet."


For the record, I made a thread the other day and said racism is worse in America than Australia.
Someone created a straw man and said that I was saying there was *no* racism in Australia.
This is the sort of thinking/people I have to contend with. 8O



cyberdad
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22 Jan 2021, 3:26 am

Dear_one wrote:
Re: Virtue Signalling. AFAIR, the Bible advises Virtue Secrecy - If you do good with your right hand, don't even tell your left hand about it. Of course, that tends to leave God with more credit for happy happenings.

There is a story about a Rabbi who went to the temple to pray aloud "Oh, Lord, compared to you, I am nothing. Nothing!" Seeing this a lawyer then prayed "Oh, Lord, compared to you, I am nothing. Nothing!"
The janitor, coming in to clean, was also inspired to pray "Oh, Lord, compared to you, I am nothing. Nothing!"
The lawyer nudged the Rabbi, and whispered "Now look who thinks he's nothing!"


Yes this perfectly describes many sanctimonious people who hide their nasty deeds behind their so called christian upbringing



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22 Jan 2021, 3:36 am

League_Girl wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I knew racism was still around, I just thought those people were rare. Now I am sad to see racism is very common in the US and I totally disagreed when people thought people had gotten more racist after Trump was elected into office and I knew then, "No, they just came out of their closet."


A few things happened
1. Trump blew a dog-whistle to right-wing types in order to sure up his support base
2. People who always existed with right wing beliefs felt emboldened to come out in public and these are the MAGAs
3. The left now have at their disposal the means to film these jokers and upload media to the WWW in a matter of seconds
4. The MAGAs, police, armed forces and others got caught on film saying and doing racist things

In some ways Trump may have done society a favour by drawing out racism that was hiding just beneath the surface.



I still have a hard time believing how one can support that man and not be racist. All I see are deniers when they deny anything he says and make excuses. But at least some of them are honest on why they support him despite being a self aware wolf.


The colour demographic benefited in some ways, under the trump administration.
There were significant numbers of coloured people voting for him.
He supported Israel.
Didn't his daughter marry someone who was Jewish?

Pretty poor qualification for a racist.

For "The Peanut Gallery", I am not defending trump.
I am defending the Truth. 8)
Please crucify me gently :mrgreen:



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22 Jan 2021, 3:44 am

Pepe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I knew racism was still around, I just thought those people were rare. Now I am sad to see racism is very common in the US and I totally disagreed when people thought people had gotten more racist after Trump was elected into office and I knew then, "No, they just came out of their closet."


A few things happened
1. Trump blew a dog-whistle to right-wing types in order to sure up his support base
2. People who always existed with right wing beliefs felt emboldened to come out in public and these are the MAGAs
3. The left now have at their disposal the means to film these jokers and upload media to the WWW in a matter of seconds
4. The MAGAs, police, armed forces and others got caught on film saying and doing racist things

In some ways Trump may have done society a favour by drawing out racism that was hiding just beneath the surface.



I still have a hard time believing how one can support that man and not be racist. All I see are deniers when they deny anything he says and make excuses. But at least some of them are honest on why they support him despite being a self aware wolf.


The colour demographic benefited in some ways, under the trump administration.
There were significant numbers of coloured people voting for him.
He supported Israel.
Didn't his daughter marry someone who was Jewish?

Pretty poor qualification for a racist.

For "The Peanut Gallery", I am not defending trump.
I am defending the Truth. 8)
Please crucify me gently :mrgreen:


"I can't be racist, I have black friends" is a fallacy argument.


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cyberdad
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22 Jan 2021, 3:44 am

Pepe wrote:
The colour demographic benefited in some ways, under the trump administration.
There were significant numbers of coloured people voting for him.
He supported Israel.
Didn't his daughter marry someone who was Jewish?

Pretty poor qualification for a racist.


He more than made up for this by getting his chief strategist Steve Bannon to write his policies, Bannon is a well known rabid anti-Semite. The reason he fell out with Trump is because of his known stoushes with Jared Kushner (who is jewish) so trump had no choice. But even after this Trump still exonerated him after he pocketed donation money mean't for their stupid wall.