The Pro-Cure Thread

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Billy Joel would also like to weigh in. I guess you might question the validity of a claim of universality when it is coming from someone that has battled depression and alcoholism so long. I'll concede that. But still, I'm only mentioning it as another example datapoint instead of proof.

It might be that you are more self-aware of your mask because of the effort you put into it. The truth is NTs often manage to wear masks so deep and convincing that they can even look themselves in the metaphor mirror and not remember they are wearing it.

Unless you mean you are better at remembering who you are, consciously aware of the mask, while wearing the mask? Or are you talking about the distance you have to reach with the mask, the amount of metamorphosis required? The later I'm not sure about, it seems like "it is a different task on a different journey" is the best way to cover that.

Ok, I guess there was no need from my part to argue that most of the traits you mentioned are not supported empirically. We both agree that those are your "believes" - that is subjective observations and findings, if you see what I mean.
I think in your reply you mixed up your personal traits and Asperger's traits. And defending aspergers traits you give example of yourself, as if all you are driven is just Asperger's traits. That is you give yourself as an example to justify Asperger's traits. Well, I did not want to denigrate you or anybody with Aspergers. My purpose was to extract those traits that Asperger's syndrom gives you in particular. And at this, I am rather inclined to stick to the formal, objectively proved findings. If you you do not share any of the traits I quoted, or if you feel that you are far more advanced and turned "weaknesses into strengths" - this is what your other personal traits give you.
My point is - you can be a lot more then what nature has given you, given that you a WILLING to. So, whether you like it or not - but you are a good example to that.
So my point remains: inheriting Asperger's syndrom - is not a great thing, and it rather makes your life more difficult than enhances it. but in trying to be better, or improve their life, improve their social interaction - SOME people can achieve a lot. It is like those people who are challenged with all sorts of physical disabilities for example (this is an example of a human will and spirit, I hope nobody is going to bash me for that!), so, some people who are challenged phisically can become a great sportsmen, or pilots or whatever...
It is the position like "I am án Aspie, and that is why I am better then most NTs" that I detest. I think being "better" implies a little bit more work then just being born with some "syndrom".
And thank you for reading my recondite posts (I feel my English leaves much to be desired)

May I ask you: how many other Aspies do you know very well personally? I was just wondering... how did you make all those observations about Aspies... Well, i do not know.. may be you really know personally at least 10... That sounds unbelievable to me.. but who knows? May be your findings do have some empirical grounds...

Just like you called "being stubborn" - having "strong will", you call now NTs having "fake nature, not genuine" just because they better understand the context of situation. They say Hi, and How are you? just because it is a routine greetings, they understand the context, they do not mean a lot of it LITERARY, yes. But it takes a little more wrongdoings to call a person's nature "not genuine =fake". Do they really fake it? Well, in your SUBJECTIVE oppinion - yes, they do. But on their standards - they don't. They may even find it enjoyable. Or at least, they do not give any consideration to this chat at all. And they understand that the other side - does not attach a lot of literal meaning to it either. This is according to your, subjective Aspie view - that this is something insinsere. But for thenm - this is just an emotional, or formal side of communication. Just as you find it easier not to have any talk at all they find it easier to exchange some meaningless phrases rather then openly show : I do not care about you.
I hate this "how are you?" eigher. And, in many cases, I wish I were just invisible. But this is my subjective understanding and feelings. And while part of me wants to say: Just leave me alone! The other part of me knows that they do not give a damn of what I will reply. So I just say "Hi!". Actually I also know that "fake friendliness" is still much better then open hostility. I have lived in places where people are openly and genuinely hostile. So, weighing the goods and the bads of it, I would pick the "lesser evil".

This thread is getting pointless................ Is there anything new that can be said on the topic?

I tend talk around my point so much that I think I confused our situation more. So I'm sorry for that. But I guess what I'm saying is that if those traits I listed were common, then I think it would make us better in the sense of all Aspies vs All NTs. In the sense of one Aspie, like myself, vs. NTs, well, I'm a little vain and believe I'm better than them. I seem to communicate that more as I grew a habit of doing so to appear confident (my way of fitting in type thing), but I honestly am aware that I'm not better at everything, just some of the things.

Psychology is a very confusing subject because there is a level to philosophy in it. If psychology thought of AS as a complete difference, then it would be a personality type rather than a syndrome. I think psychology does that because they assume because we are too different with the way we approach things, then it must be a syndrome. Maybe what happened is because a severe case of autism does impair a person's ability to an extreme, and AS seemed such a milder form of it (which have they even proved this is autism...it's not like they do blood work for autism?) because of the similarities that they group it with that.

I personally feel like the things that are supposed to be my impairments are not real impairments. THe only time it has interfered with my life is when NT's are involved (such as school, jobs, etc.). I seem to communicate with other AS people (on this forum) as well, if not better, than NT's communicating between each other. The only difference is most of the topics on here are generally more thought provoking (i.e. Pro Cure thread) than NT topics (such as what happened on Days of our Lives today).

I do think that there are some things that are AS symptoms, and only that. I also think some things are AS symptoms because of the common NT responses we get for being AS. Considering I'm pretty successful at something until I rub an NT the wrong way and fail by their wishes, I kind of do resent NT's. I didn't know what AS was until recently, so I always figured the problem was a normal problem all people face and my ability to not be able to face it victoriously made me suck. Now with age, and more knowledge and experience, I realize that what was stopping me from winning was the AS, and normal people don't always face the haters to the level AS people do (with the exception of minorities who suffer from discrimination, i.e. Mexicans). If I were up against normal office politics, I could probably learn without medication or a therapist on how to adapt to that type of world and succeed better. But as soon as I say something strange or off the wall, then I get a group of haters that take the politics to an extreme. I guess it's like my personality has a skin tone to it. When people of other races are discriminated against for their skin, they aren't expected to change their skin to fit in; the other people around them, i.e. white people, were expected to accept that difference.

So, I figure if Puerto Rican people can take pride in their culture no matter how much America discriminates, then I should be allowed to take pride of my AS. While I'm sure many minorities wish they could change their skin tone, I know many who find pride in it. I don't think of our symptoms as impairments...only differences.

But I love your mentality too about it's not what life dishes out but what you make of it. I really think that's important to realize that no matter what you got. But I wouldn't say life dished me out some severe mental impairment because I can't socialize well. I figure it to be that life made me different than most people (that's all I was until I found out about AS...different, weird, strange) and it's my will that makes that good or bad, which is something I've been trying to say all along. I think we agree in the end about the main point, but we both take two completely different approaches to getting there.

I do not think anything is wrong with bettering yourself. If your flaw is your social skills with neurotypicals or being a jerk or sleeping in every morning, whatever the flaw, it's always important for people to do that self analysis regularly and decide which flaws they want to work on improving and then work on improving those flaws. No one person is flawless. I really think int the idea of finding a cure? Finding a cure for AS is like trying to find a cure for people who are introverted. I really think AS is more of a personality thing than a symptom thing, but i often decide I want to change many aspects of my personality just because i want to, so to change yourself isn't always an issue of bettering yourself as much as trying to become the person you wish to be.

The only Aspies I know personally is my nephew. IN fact, my family often compares the similarities between him and I to themselves (like an AS vs NT), and I've been guilty of that as well. But, it is really us trying to find an understanding of things. We also think one of my Aunts and one of my grandparents may also have AS, but no where near for sure on that one. That's why I came to this forum originally, my nephew, but I found it so therepeutic to see all these people saying things that I've been saying for years, or going through some of the same problems I have. Lately, I've been putting too much time on this forum than I really want to, but I just enjoy myself in a world where people actually get me. That's something my own family cannot offer me (except my 8 year old nephew). Most of my information on that, which is why I stressed I THINK type thing, is from what I've read on websites on this topic and observation on this forum. IT COMPLETELY IS OPINION...IT LACKS ANY SCIENTIFIC METHOD. Someday, though, I'd like to change that. I would love to perform the study on AS vs NT thinking. I guess it's my way of finding a cure cause in my mind, the cure really is to accept what you got, take pride in who you are flaws and all, and find a balance between who you are and what you are willing to give just to get along. I think promoting that it is a difference and people should be more accepting of it would help make things easier, in time. I don't think they will ever actually cure autism. Curing discrimination sounds like an easier fight to me.

Also, I do think that being better is more work than being born with it, but I think the AS seems to push us harder at working more (whether it be out of obsessions, trying to fit in, etc.), and that's what makes the difference.

I also think the Aspie cognitive growth and maturing process is different from NT's, and that's why you got people ready to take a pill and you got people proud of who they are and wish not to change it. It's also why you got some more involved with their interests and others who have learned to make regular life (i.e. parenting) their new interest. Again, this is all speculative opinion, but we obviously don't know enough about AS scientifically, and new studies are often inspired by mere opinion, especially popular ones.

Sorry I didn't edit more. I just have to go.

This is a really really inapropriate analogy. Please, have the wisdom to admit it. Save me from going into long and boring monologue about why it is so wrong. Let us at least agree that nationality based discrimination has nothing to do with the social difficulties that Aspies have. Aspies problems really has nothing to do with bigger nations discriminating minorities, JUST BECAUSE of their looks, their nationality and regarless of the kind of personalities that they are.

And let us agree that national pride (the pride of having rich culture, traditions and such) has entirely different nature. The pride of your brain being wired in particular way, attaching this property to a particular syndrom and then claiming the superiority of people with this syndrom over all others - has something to do with eugenics. It rather reminds me of Hitler, who claimed that the Germans are perfect and their blood is blue. All other nations are inferior.

Plenty, but it only works when both sides can respect the other.

Sadly, despite my attempts in the opening post, it seems to have veered away from that. The ''Pro-Cure'' side is working in a few insults, which I do not condone...

At the very least I'm glad to see that the ''anti-cure'' side has maintained, for the most part, some semblance of respect(minus ephemerella). It's a reverse of what I usually experience here and I hope it's a case of ''silent majority''.

Respect is earned, and often not received in response to insults. I think that in the case of some of the offensive statements made about AS in some "Pro cure" posts, there is a silent majority.

If you had posted, as OP, some meaningful input to clarify and amplify on what you felt were constructive ways to think about pro-cure vs. anti-cure, I'm sure that people would have welcomed that and the thread would have been richer in content as a result of your contribution.

If you put something out for discussion, and then do not contribute, shape, mediate or comment during that discussion, you are at most criticizing people for not volunteering to say what you want to hear. It was nice that you posted this thread... if it didn't go the way you wanted, you could take a more active role.

By singling me out as the offensive poster on your thread, I think that you are revealing an subject matter bias.

Last edited by ephemerella on 23 Dec 2008, 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Which is why I do not respect you.

Ephemerella offered a respectful insight into her personal feelings about her AS, and was attacked for it. She and others, myself included, responded to the attack with still more respect and thoughtful arguments. The person that made the original insult, I feel, was simply projecting their own self-loathing onto her. And now you come with a post whose only purpose seems to be to insult her further.
Ephermerella responded to a personal, ignorant attack with grace and respect, and thus has earned my respect. Perhaps you could give your reasons for not respecting her? She did not attack you, nor did she attack anybody else as far as I could see. You are not defending a position or calling her out for a particular insult, so why are you insulting her?

You have made some very offensive posts regarding "militant" AS and other comments in the past. Not everyone will be silent about these AS-bashing threads just because you are a kid. The fact that you keep bumping the offensive threads back up and starting new ones and, as in this case, opening up personal lines of attack against other posters by name, is, I think, and I have said in the past, kind of trollish behavior.

Whatever you get out of it, it doesn't offend me personally, even if you make it personal. However, I will respond to AS-bashing posts with what I think are substantive and content-rich arguments, not mere conclusory statements of attack, either of AS as a syndrome that inferior and contemptible people have, or personal condemnations.

It would be nice, at this point, if you wrote some comments in response to the posts here that talk about your feelings about being pro-cure. A lot of people have posted. Surely there is some interest on your part in having a discussion since you keep opening and bumping these threads, even threads from months back.

What is it you want to say, aside from general statements about how dreadful AS people are? Have your discussion. Really. It is welcome.

Last edited by ephemerella on 23 Dec 2008, 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The ''not volunteering to say what you want to hear'' is ironic coming from you, considering you've accused me of being a troll for disagreeing with you.

That's one of the reasons I believe you're the disrespectful one. Apart from that false troll accusation, there's the accusation of me just making things up to support my thoughts, or the ''self-hate'' people like me apparently have.

Yes, I do have a bias against you, I suppose. I do dislike you. People who make false accusations do strike a chord with me, and it only gets worse with views like ''NT's suck'' and ''Those who want a cure are dysfunctional messes''.

You keep treating me like I'm attacking every AS person. That I think if you have As you're a bad person. I have not done this, but I certainly don't think anything justifies these attacks on NT's either.

I have not bashed AS. I just find it rather ironic people talk about ''Neirodiversity'' while at the same time attack people who are different to themselves.

Neither do I want people to be silent about these threads. All I ask is that they do not make incorrect accusations, such as ''You're attacking AS people!''. This is false. I have made it very clear that I whole-heartedly support people who would prefer to keep it, but that they shouldn't strike at people wo would prefer not to(and vice-versa, for that matter) or NT's.

To be honest, I don't need to justify myself to you, nor is there any real point because all you ever see is what you want to, which is that I'm a troll who is attacking everyone. No matter how many times I point out I have not attacked every As person, no matter how many times I show how I do not mind people who are ''anti''-cure, you will still see me as this because I don't agree with your views on NT's as little inferior monsters and that I should embrace AS as a blessing even though I don't see it that way(which must be that I have developed into a dysfunctional mess according to you).

Last edited by DeanFoley on 23 Dec 2008, 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I have used the word "trollish" regarding your posts on a couple of occasions, when I was referring to behavior where, in my opinion, you have said unnecessarily negative things about AS people and then refused to clarify, but responded to people who questioned your negative post with personal attacks. On one occasion (and I am loosely recollecting this) you posted something negative about AS people that in my opinion was an empty insult, myself and another person responded questioning what your specific meaning was and why you said it, and you responded to each of our posts with personal insults. And then I summarized your behavior and said it was "trollish". That is not the same as levelling a "troll" accusation at you.

>>"Yes, I do have a bias against you, I suppose. I do dislike you."

In that case you are welcome to send me hate email. I usually don't read my email so it won't bother me. But you shouldn't put your resentment on these threads that you open, that become full of demeaning statements about AS people.

But you have never really answered the questions you yourself invite with these threads. Why do you keep posting them?

You are welcome to have your say. If you don't have a lot to say, but have these strong feelings, maybe you should explore why you hate AS and people who identify with AS so strongly?

"Troll" seems to be such an emotionally loaded word that people interpret in wildly different ways. So I guess it's "inflammatory" language.

When I used the word "trollish" I meant specific posts and the tactics used, like I would refer to someone in another kind of debate using a "fallacy".

If I accuse someone of using "fallacious" arguments, I'm not calling them a fraud or a phony.

The comment, when it was specific to the post or debating behavior, is intended to only describe the skirmish, not the person personally.

If the use of "trollish" to describe something was really offensive to you, I apologize and won't use that word again on this forum.

''I have used the word "trollish" regarding your posts on a couple of occasions, when I was referring to behavior where, in my opinion, you have said unnecessarily negative things about AS people and then refused to clarify, but responded to people who questioned your negative post with personal attacks. On one occasion (and I am loosely recollecting this) you posted something negative about AS people that in my opinion was an empty insult, myself and another person responded questioning what your specific meaning was and why you said it, and you responded to each of our posts with personal insults. And then I summarized your behavior and said it was "trollish". That is not the same as levelling a "troll" accusation at you.''

Find me this please. You keep droning on about how many personal attacks I make, but I can't find any. You always insist ''Give some examples'', so you're going to have to follow that.

[edited to delete duplicate post]

Last edited by ephemerella on 23 Dec 2008, 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.