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Callista
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24 Jul 2012, 11:43 pm

Well, the Joker is a really good and really popular character. There are plenty of people who might call themselves "Joker" on a forum. Not to mention that there's a major character named Joker in the "Mass Effect" games, who is also quite popular. I kind of doubt it's the same person.


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aghogday
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25 Jul 2012, 12:49 am

analyser23 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
analyser23 wrote:
This may sound strange, but a close friend of mine mentioned a while back that the US Government plans on wanting to devise schemes to create gun laws in America. It has been speculated that the Port Arthur incident here in Oz was "set up" in order to make everyone want gun laws here and they used Martin Bryant to do this. Apparently parts of the story don't add up.

And now this situation in Aurora. I heard that witnesses are now saying that there were actually 2 other men who entered the cinema first and set off smoke bombs before James Holmes came in through the exit door.

Forgive me if I am wrong, I have no idea, but just curious if anyone had heard anything about this stuff? It is interesting that the biggest focus in the media (here in Aust anyway) is based around gun laws.... Plus the fact that he looked so drugged out ?


Those type of conspiracy theories generate a great deal of money for radio talk show hosts in the US, that have benefited greatly ever since 9/11. If there was any credibility to the theories, we would likely be hearing about them from credible sources, as freedom of speech is still allowed in the US, which protects the conspiracy theories in the first place.

I wouldn't be surprised if your friend heard about it on the InfoWars Site, Prison Planet, or Alex Jones whose media is syndicated world wide. He is making a ton of money off of conspiracy theories, survival gear for government take over, as well as many other money making schemes. Freedom of Speech provides the continued ability for people to say almost anything to get rich. Infowars is among the sources that continue to propagate vaccine conspiracies as well.

Some people in the US, believe every word of it, regardless of evidence to the contrary.


Thanks for your reply. And yes, you are right, he does listen to Alex Jones, etc. What is with so many people wanting to manipulate others just so that they can buy more yachts to add to their collection? :(


I personally think it is close to the equivalent of a physical addiction for some.



DrPenguin
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25 Jul 2012, 1:03 am

Callista wrote:
People with schizophrenia and delusions do tend to respond to those delusions in a way that's in line with their personality, though. Someone who wouldn't kill people if they really did wake up to find they'd metamorphosed into the Joker also wouldn't kill people if they had the delusion that they were the Joker. They'd probably be paralyzed by the fear that they would start killing people; or they'd believe that they had killed people and turn themselves in... etc.

Obviously you can't do the experiments to test it, but I think it's likely that when a murderer has schizophrenia, it is highly likely that he would also have become a murderer if he had never had schizophrenia. The delusions are extenuating circumstances, but the choice to kill is still there.


The joker persona could have been part of his revenge fantasies (they wouldn't treat me like this if I were the Joker he'd just kill them) the hospital scene would also be consistent with the bombs. It's odd though he went with the red hair (could it be a 'disguise' like in the movie) but would normally associate the joker persona as green hair. Also the make up is as important? Something doesn't fit 100% but he had to have the tendency to commit the act and the driving force.



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25 Jul 2012, 1:34 am

Honestly, who cares if he has Asperger's? So what if there is a meaningful correlation between Asperger's and mass murderers. It's not an epidemic so I'm not worried. And no, I didn't read any of the posts.


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25 Jul 2012, 1:56 am

**A final official diagnosis, per court proceedings has not yet been provided for Breivik as 3 different diagnoses have been provided by three different diagnosing professionals.**

just goes to show what a load of bollocks DX actually is...



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25 Jul 2012, 2:18 am

Now they are suspected he may be faking his psychosis.

http://gma.yahoo.com/james-holmes-goofy ... ories.html


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Callista
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25 Jul 2012, 2:19 am

I think people just want to diagnose him with something so they can stay in comfortable denial of the fact that human beings are indeed capable of willingly choosing to kill innocents. They want to say, "See? He didn't really mean it; he was crazy!" And then they can tell themselves that they're not crazy; therefore they could never ever do anything like that. People don't like to admit that everyday, sane humans are indeed able to do horrible, evil things. So they say "he's crazy" and pretend that insanity is a prerequisite for evil, when in fact they are unrelated.

I wish they'd stop doing that. Mentally healthy, sane humans do horrible things every day. Think of slavery in America, or the Holocaust, or the Salem witch trials, or the massacres perpetrated by various groups of people, including the US military. Those were sane people killing innocents. Think of the Milgram experiment or the prison simulation at Stanford. If we were more aware of our own capacity for evil, maybe we would work harder to prevent it. But instead we just sit back and say, "Oh, I could never do anything like that! Only crazy people do that!" and pretend we're immune.


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aghogday
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25 Jul 2012, 3:10 am

Callista wrote:
People with schizophrenia and delusions do tend to respond to those delusions in a way that's in line with their personality, though. Someone who wouldn't kill people if they really did wake up to find they'd metamorphosed into the Joker also wouldn't kill people if they had the delusion that they were the Joker. They'd probably be paralyzed by the fear that they would start killing people; or they'd believe that they had killed people and turn themselves in... etc.

Obviously you can't do the experiments to test it, but I think it's likely that when a murderer has schizophrenia, it is highly likely that he would also have become a murderer if he had never had schizophrenia. The delusions are extenuating circumstances, but the choice to kill is still there.




I worked with the military for over twenty years with trained killers, but never felt any sense of danger being around them, because what they did was considered part of the social norm. People with no desire to kill others, can do it if properly motivated and trained, and are viewed as heroes, as well as enjoying hero status for their killing achievement.

I don't think that violent video games are increasing violence for most people, per general statistics on violence, but they can effectively desensitize individuals to violence. The military uses virtual reality combat to desensitize soldiers to the stresses of the real combat environment.

While only 6 of the102 rampage murders, studied before the year 2000 were associated with violence in the media, there is little research since then other than the self report of Anders Breivik who says he trained with video games for his violent rampage. He still doesn't have a definitive court diagnosis, but appears to have had some psychosis, and delusions, per his psychiatric evaluations.

There are virtual experiences of killing that many young males are exposed to from a very young age. The overwhelming majority, do not move on to killing live human beings. However, combat soldiers do, because they are properly trained and motivated to do so.

Delusions are derived from perceptions of reality. When there are no longer any barriers between reality and delusions, it becomes a matter of what the human brain has been fed over a lifetime. Some emulate heroes; some emulate villains. Video games allow children from a very young age to put them self into the role of each.

Similar to the cowboy and Indian roles when I was a young kid, complete with toy guns and bows and "safe arrows", except in video games people are portrayed as injured and dying.

I was not desensitized to violence as a child, and was not able to desensitize myself to it as an adult, the few times I tried to play violent video games. I thought I was supposed to enjoy it, but I had enough stress in real life, without killing people in video games.

There are very few children that kill in video games that end up murdering others as adults,as violence overall is decreasing in society, but never the less a generation of trained killers exist in the young adult population, through virtual reality training.

This has always been the case for the military per the social norm of killing in combat, and killing in videos is a social norm as well, so there shouldn't be too much to worry about other than an overall greater number of trained killers, operating within social norms.

Historically military experience is associated with Rampage Killers; that should be no surprise, as the training is there, when social norms are exceeded.

In the case of Holmes, it's not likely he would have received the same training to prepare for killing unless he had been in the military. Most people don't act on it, when social norms are in effect, but social norms don't necessarily apply when delusions/psychosis are present.

Holmes was not what one would consider usual combat material for the army, but never the less he carried out an intricate mission to kill, potentially with delusions and/or psychosis.

He didn't get that training in the military. It appears he got the majority of it in the virtual world, through solitary effort.

If he was experiencing psychosis and/or delusions, it's not likely they were ones associated with being the hero. Killing games are a potentially more dangerous a diet fed to one's brain for some than others, potentially in rare cases like this, where many factors come together for a devastating incident. Unfortunately while there are signs for autism spectrum disorders in childhood, there are often no clues that one will develop a disorder on the schizophrenic "scale".

And for males and females it often comes at a solitary point in life, where there is a lower chance of support or even identification that there is a problem, that requires treatment, even if they are advantaged like this young man in economic status.

In my opinion virtual reality allows a safer outlet for some that might operate within the human element to do harm; it may be part of the reason most crimes have gone down, including serial killing.

This is the one violent and fortunately very rare crime that continues to escalate, in the last couple of decades. Perhaps part of the issue is there is a larger population of trained killers, among those that potentially fall to these type of crimes, when the right mix of other factors come into play resulting in a devastating incident.

Hopefully this type of violence will retain it's relative rarity, which seems to be restricted in part by human parameters of a social norm. If not, society will likely have to rethink social norms as they exist now and make changes if identified as necessary. Rampage killings are definitely closer to the norm where war is the social norm, in other countries, particularly developing ones.



aghogday
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25 Jul 2012, 3:27 am

League_Girl wrote:
Now they are suspected he may be faking his psychosis.

http://gma.yahoo.com/james-holmes-goofy ... ories.html


They are entertaining the possibility but not suggesting a likely hood, as they don't believe from his history that he is a potential sociopath, that normally would be associated with that type of deception. Interesting though to find out he was not drugged, likely exhausted and potentially psychotic as a result of lack of sleep, which most individuals can succumb to.

The expert didn't volunteer that as a likely scenario or a suspected one, but provided it as a possible one, because she was specifically asked if it was possible that Holmes could be faking it.

He is in a lose lose situation if he is faking; there are no good options, either locked in a maximum security ward of a mental hospital or a prison. He is on suicide watch, so it's not likely that the death penalty is something he is trying to avoid at this point.

Quote:
But Randazzo also said there was a third possibility. He might simply be faking it.

"It's possible," she said when asked if Holmes' behavior could be all an act. "It is possible. We'll leave that open," she said, adding that most people who lie about that sort of behavior are sociopaths and "What we've heard about his history does not suggest sociopath at all."

"Let's keep that in mind that he was studying neuroscience. He was studying exactly the type of brain issues that we're going to be talking about throughout this whole case," she said.



Mayel
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25 Jul 2012, 3:58 am

Maybe he changes his hair color into something so vivid because he simply wanted to break from who he was. Sometimes depressive people shave their heads either to do something akin to self-mutilation, or because they want to change their old ways or because they want to be done with choosing hair styles...and so on.
So maybe the hair color is not as much about the Joker as it is about making a cut in his life. Nonetheless, the Joker is some kind of clown and a bright orange-reddish hair color is clownish, too. Remember, he spitted on guards in prison, he acted crazy and when he was in the police car he played with plastic bags as if they were puppets which is all consistent with being a clown-like figure.

Also, why didn't he just bomb a place? This would have been a rational choice if his sole purpose was to kill people but maybe he wanted to feel
powerful,too. He moved around the room and targeted people, yelled at them, grabed them and shoot them.

He always identified with villains. This may indicate that he already felt unlike others for a long time. The same person also said that he wanted to be liked and wanted
and had not many friends for someone who wanted those kind of things. Either way, it sounds like he felt he was not being liked (maybe even something more) for who he was. His mother stated that she feared he'd been disturbed for years and was concerned about his social isolation..., too.

It seems he didn't pull out of the neurobiology program because he failed an exam; he could've failed the exam because he was already obsessing over something.
Probably it's about changing who he was, his past...therefore no apparent digital traces (apart of those from his new self), trying to blow up his home and dropping out of uni.This doesn't mean he was hopeless, since he clearly wanted to survive (hence the body armor). Now he's on suicide watch....
Chronically repressed resentment....he didn't act out when teased, and acted friendly, polite and nice (maybe consciously, in contrast to his inner world).
All this negativity and apparently no close support from anybody; at least not the way he would've liked it to be.

I found this to be intresting:

Quote:
About 16 percent of mass killings target complete strangers, said Levin, professor of sociology and criminology at Northeastern. They are not necessarily more or less severely mentally ill than murderers who target acquaintances or people who belong to a group they resent, but their pathology takes a distinct form.

Wide-ranging suspicion that the world has treated you unfairly can be a sign of paranoid personality disorder. The American Psychiatric Association defines that condition as "a pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others such that their motives are interpreted as malevolent, beginning by early adulthood."
Of all the psychoses, paranoia is the most difficult to detect," said John Jay's Schlesinger. "Unless you broach a particular subject - like work, if someone thinks his boss is out to get him - they might very well seem normal if you sat down and talked to them. In Holmes' case, it could have been an encapsulated paranoia, focused on one particular area of life where he thinks people are out to get him."

If so, Holmes would fit the profile of the mass murderer whose act has been triggered by a severe strain and led him to externalize blame, Levin and Fox's studies have shown.

"They blame everyone but themselves for their frustration and disappointment," said Levin. "Then there is some acute strain, which usually takes the form of a catastrophic loss - of a job, of money, of a child in a custody battle, or of academic standing. ... The catastrophic strain sets the stage for the planning phase of the mass murder."

source


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aghogday
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25 Jul 2012, 4:28 am

Callista wrote:
I think people just want to diagnose him with something so they can stay in comfortable denial of the fact that human beings are indeed capable of willingly choosing to kill innocents. They want to say, "See? He didn't really mean it; he was crazy!" And then they can tell themselves that they're not crazy; therefore they could never ever do anything like that. People don't like to admit that everyday, sane humans are indeed able to do horrible, evil things. So they say "he's crazy" and pretend that insanity is a prerequisite for evil, when in fact they are unrelated.

I wish they'd stop doing that. Mentally healthy, sane humans do horrible things every day. Think of slavery in America, or the Holocaust, or the Salem witch trials, or the massacres perpetrated by various groups of people, including the US military. Those were sane people killing innocents. Think of the Milgram experiment or the prison simulation at Stanford. If we were more aware of our own capacity for evil, maybe we would work harder to prevent it. But instead we just sit back and say, "Oh, I could never do anything like that! Only crazy people do that!" and pretend we're immune.


Evil is a relative issue, at most a human construct.

Human beings are capable of almost any atrocity if it is valued as the social norm. And victims even welcome it with a sense of pride, in some countries that practice horrible things like FGM.

But interestingly enough, there are some acts well outside of the social norm that rarely happen, such as rampage killing in our society.

If humans did not have a well developed capacity for a social norm and a general willingness to cooperate with social norms, there would likely be random acts of gun violence everywhere.

We are not immune to it, the prisons filled to capacity are evidence of it.

However, in countries where the social norm is to take care of everyone, the issues of violence are much lower.

It's part of culture and human nature to test the limits of social norms to ensure they stay in place. Also to determine future actions to maintain safety

I don't really see a successful insanity plea providing much comfort to the masses, that have offered up their own creative fantasy methods to punish him with death. The largest insult would likely be if he was judged incompetent for trial, and they could not view his continued suggested potential psychotic behavior, for sport of watching what looks like a tortured soul over a long period of time.

His likely method of exit at this point in time would be ending his life, as quickly as possible. Schizophrenics have the highest suicide rates among all mental illnesses. It's not easy to lose one's mind, if that is what is happening to this young man. And for all we know he may be experiencing horrible guilt in potentially coming to terms of what he has done, per a step outside of delusion. If this wasn't a potential for the young man before he met potential mental illness, I can't imagine a more horrifying scenario than viewing those actions from the perspective of a former reality where there was no potential of this happening.

From all accounts available it doesn't appear this young man has lived a full life identified as the devil. Neither did Loughner. It appears that both young males effectively may have lost their identity as human beings. Mental illness can do that. Schizophrenia can do that. We may be looking at one of the most horrifying examples of it that is possible. More often we don't get to see it because the rampage killers are often killed or commit suicide as part of the act.

If a young man is 17 or a young woman is 35, there are no guarantees they won't visit such a place, along with all the other potentials of arriving in a similar place. The odds are low at .07%. They could find themselves as a person they never knew before, as well as their loved ones. Schizophrenics are most often harmless, and more likely abused, but the potential torture of the soul, is not potentially less than what this young man may be experiencing.

When I hear people say he will get lucky to get off with the insanity plea, his life will be saved, I'm not sure some have any idea what it actually means to be a person whom is legally insane. What is there to gain when one loses their mind? What is left? There is no escape for some anywhere.



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25 Jul 2012, 5:04 am

aghogday wrote:
They are entertaining the possibility but not suggesting a likely hood, as they don't believe from his history that he is a potential sociopath, that normally would be associated with that type of deception. Interesting though to find out he was not drugged, likely exhausted and potentially psychotic as a result of lack of sleep, which most individuals can succumb to.


I recall saying earlier in the thread that he looked exhausted to me. And now there are experts who agree.

There are things to look for in a psychopath's or sociopath's history that might stand out. However, some have no such hints in their history. I think Ted Bundy was one such, but I'm trying to confirm that. I will note that Holmes' mother said "You have the right person."

Quote:
The expert didn't volunteer that as a likely scenario or a suspected one, but provided it as a possible one, because she was specifically asked if it was possible that Holmes could be faking it.


Aside from what I said above, it is important to keep this in mind. She said a 5% chance he was faking it. I think he was honestly exhausted in that case. That is, I know what I think is likely, but I am not committed to that being the only case.

Quote:
He is in a lose lose situation if he is faking; there are no good options, either locked in a maximum security ward of a mental hospital or a prison. He is on suicide watch, so it's not likely that the death penalty is something he is trying to avoid at this point.


I think suicide watch is standard. I mean, Martin Bryant did try to kill himself several times.



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25 Jul 2012, 7:23 am

redrobin62 wrote:
Hey, I was just thinking, there used to be a poster here on WP who called himself Joker. Haven't heard from him in a while. Is he still around?

He had been banned for trolling. But terms of service say to not talk about banned members.



Mayel
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25 Jul 2012, 7:29 am

Verdandi wrote:
There are things to look for in a psychopath's or sociopath's history that might stand out. However, some have no such hints in their history. I think Ted Bundy was one such, but I'm trying to confirm that. I will note that Holmes' mother said "You have the right person."

Their attorney said this about that statement:
Quote:
A criminal-defense attorney hired by the family of shooting suspect James Eagan Holmes says his mother was portrayed inaccurately by national media reports that implied she knew her son was troubled.

Lawyer Lisa Damiani said her client Arlene Holmes knew nothing about the mass murder in Denver when she was awakened about 5:45 a.m. PDT Friday by ABC News. Damiani said the reporter asked whether she was Arlene Holmes and whether her son was James Holmes. Reading a statement from Arlene Holmes, Damiani said: "I said 'Yes, you have the right person.' But I was talking about myself."


source

But there's another report about people who knew the family and they stated that his family was concerned about him. They even wanted him to go to counseling this year.
For more info on this:

source2


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25 Jul 2012, 7:36 am

aghogday wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
There are some experts that have suggested that the legalization of the sale of semi-automatic weapons in the US, have had an impact in the uptick of the body count of rampage killings in the last couple of decades, but it's hard to prove cause and effect, other than more bullets provided in a shorter period of time do have the potential to injure more individuals. That's common sense. The question becomes would they have had access to illegal weapons if the legal weapons were not available. It appears Holmes was a resourceful individual. It couldn't do much more damage than hurting people's feelings, that want to purchase more, if the semi-automatic weapons were banned for sale again. Along with a reduction of federal excise taxes that are heavy on the sale of those weapons.

The Batman movie appears to have played a role as an associated factor in this incidence, but it's hard to say what an alternate reality of exposure to cultural influences would have provided as far as a different result. The research done so far does not indicate that violence in the media plays a major role in rampage killings, but it has been evidenced in some cases as an associated factor.

Research so far, provides evidence that mental illness is the largest associated factor, in rampage killings, as evidenced in my last post.


semi-automatic weapons have never been illegal in the US. There was an "assault weapons ban" that ban certain semi-automatics because of appearance and also limited the number of rounds a magazine could hold but it was ironically his "high capacity" magazine that may have jammed his rife.

I'm not sure that magazine capacity is really much of a limiting factor with semi-auto. Full auto when you're using it for cover fire or the such yes but not semi. One can change a magazine to a fresh one really fast. As far as that goes I can load my pump shotgun as fast as I can shoot it.


I wasn't referring to all semi-automatics, just the ones in the ban, from 1994, but it is interesting that shortly after that ban was lifted, in 2004, is when rampage killings escalated in the US, while violence in general continued to decrease. Not much use in using an assault rifle to kill one person. It wasn't the end of the world when the ban was instituted in 1994, it couldn't hurt anyone to re-institute it, and even if it only saved a few lives in a potential rampage killing, it would be well worth the effort.

However, the gun lobby is a powerful one in the United States; those assault weapons mean more to some of the owners than the potential for lives saved, in these type of incidences where a human being determines that the goal is to kill as many people as possible. One can't even legally do that when deer hunting.

One more incident like this where a legally obtained assault weapon does not jam and 100 people die, will likely result in the federal ban put back into place. That was a real potential in this incident, if the assault rifle had not jammed and should be a lesson to take action to ban the weapons now, but I don't see it happening, this go around. 12 dead and 51 injured apparently does not apparently meet the bar of concern to take action, in the US. Per the factors associated with this incident that is the only potential effective change identified so far that might reasonably result in a reduction in the carnage from potential incidences like this in the future.

This incident has proven without a doubt that there is no way to predict who will be involved in an incident like this, where it will happen, when it will happen, or even why it will happen if a psychotic break from reality is part of the mix. The least the government could do is to attempt to limit the tools of carnage where reasonably possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban


The firearms ban in 1994 where ban for cosmetic reasons. Rifles like the mini-14 that shoot the same round at the same rate as the AR 15 where not included. If you can show me a practical difference between these rifles I'll listen to that argument. Personally I think the rise has more to do with media attention.



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25 Jul 2012, 7:54 am

Seems like a psychotic episode of Bipolar to me but diagnosis is hard because symptoms from one condition overlap with another. Will just have to wait and see if he ever comes back to his senses.