Have you heard of this severe kind of autism?

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You are more likely to find the most profound sorts of autism, as well as profound mental retardation, among people with multiple disabilities. Perhaps that is where the confusion is. If they were diagnosed only with autism+MR, I really doubt there would be significant mobility impairment beyond the usual problems starting, stopping, and directing movements.

If someone can't move and can't communicate at all, how can you know that it's autism? If there's no way to actually communicate with them, you can't know where the disconnect is, what it is that doesn't function correctly in their brain. MRIs and PET scans and stuff would provide some insight into the neurological workings, but with no communication, how can you possibly know what the inner experience that's causing it is? For all we know, it could be that the person has somehow transcended humanity to the point that communication with the rest of the human race is unfathomable.. I'm not saying that that's the case, but.. how do you KNOW? The brain compensates for different things in different ways... it's possible that if one part of the brain fails to develop correctly, others could overdevelop so much that the thought processes would just be completely different. The more I see around here the more sure I am that diagnosis is so revolved around the frustrations of the clinician with their difficulty in communicating with someone that they're likely to just totally miss the actual problem, even if is something that could be observed and understood. It's that old misconception that different means worse. Who knows. What I can't understand, I really can't judge one way or the other.

I can't agree with that.. a diabetic with low blood sugar is crazy. They're usually quite combative and seem psychotic.. until they get some glucose. Then they seem just like a normal person, because really, they are... so it doesn't seem like an accurate analogy to me.

My point is, when we diagnose people with autism we are not looking at the causes, we are looking at the symptoms. Low blood sugar is a symptom caused by many different disorders. In this sense, low blood sugar is only a secondary effect and not a primary disorder. Autism is a group of symptoms, autism is secondary.

Hmm.. I almost thought of it more the other way.. that autism is more neurological, more of a cause than a symptom. It may depend on the form, and how well the diagnosis is made, I guess. I'm sure there are people diagnosed with autism that display those symptoms for other reasons.
For me, there have been so many diagnoses.. anxiety, depression, personality disorders, eating disorders... all things that were symptoms rather than causes.. and AS can explain almost all of the problems I've had, rather than just being a set of symptoms. I'm only just starting to wrap my mind around that.. I don't think I"m ready to process the concept that autism could be a surface symptom in a similar way as all my other symptoms have been.

that Autism itself could cause immobility that severe, it isn't a neurological disorder that affects the motor planning to that extent. It happens to be co-morbid with lots of other disorders such as MR and epilepsy. I think what you're speaking about is someone deemed to be diagnosed with multiple disabilities, Autism being one of them.

However, people with Childhood Disintegrative Disorder or Rett's Syndrome are currenlty falling in the Autism Spectrum. Both are degenerative brain disorders, and Rett's is fatal. They were grouped with Autism because the individuals exhibit some Autistic symptoms, but like another poster said, the Autistic characteristics in these cases are a drop in the bucket. These disorders involve some severe regression in motor skills, so maybe that's what your husband was thinking of?

WOW! So a person that is basically DEAD could be diagnosed as autistic? HOW?

(I) A total of six (or more) items from (A), (B), and (C), with at least two from (A), and one each from (B) and (C)

(A) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
3. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people, (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity ( note: in the description, it gives the following as examples: not actively participating in simple social play or games, preferring solitary activities, or involving others in activities only as tools or "mechanical" aids )

(B) qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:
1. delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime)
2. in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others
3. stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language
4. lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level

(C) restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least two of the following:
1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
2. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
3. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
4. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

(II) Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:

(A) social interaction
(B) language as used in social communication
(C) symbolic or imaginative play

Assuming that the individual had use of their eyes, everything in bold could be displayed. And of couse, there are plenty of people with autism, who do not have meaningful motor control, who are not paralyzed that would fit what the original poster was describing.

i do not agree with you and you are not even arguing any point i made.

first of all zyborg wrote that the immobility described by spokane girl was NOT autism and WAS cerebral palsy.
i was saying that people with cerebral palsy are not what profoundly autistic people are. both have mobility problems, and neurological mobility problems are not confined to cerebral palsy.

i did not say that the 2 can not co exist in the same person. you inferred it. color blindness is not the same as tone deafness and both can exist in the same person.
same with autism and CP.
autism does not contraindicate any other diagnosis i would think (except maybe sociopathy)

and autism does definitely render some people very mobility impaired. also i did not say total immobility because that is a vegetative state. their eyes move and they can move their muscles because they are not paralyzed, but they have severe mobility problems (profoundly affected people that is).

when i was 15, i saw a teenager while i was required to attend appointments every week at a mental health center and he was profoundly autistic i was told by a nurse (who liked me because i asked lots of medical questions) and she told me his iq was about 20.

i watched him for a while. he had a hard caking of gunk around his lips and he had thick mucus totally blocking each nostril and even protruding (he did not seem aware if it) and he dribbled with abandon, and he was in a wheelchair, and he was slumped in an almost "dead weight" way in the chair most of the time (too many "ands" i know... but there you go).
he paid no attention to any external stimuli, but he grimaced in his responses to what must have been going through his mind.

sometimes he would unexpectedly grunt out a sound like a laugh, but it sounded uncivilized as if he was taught to express himself by a pack of hyena's. it was totally unexpected when his voice erupted into an unstylized utterance, but he never said any actual words.

the most advanced thing i saw him do was grasp a stick and stimulate his hands with it. the nurse said that they find sticks outside that are a bit rough textured, and about 1.5" (3.7 cm) thick and about 1 foot long (30 cm). this fellow who was called "bru" (???) used to grab the stick in both hands and twist both his hands in opposite directions while holding the stick just hard enough to not let the stick drop, but soft enough so that his skin of each hand slipped on the rough surface of the stick in opposite directions and there was no net twisting of the stick.
he made a moaning sound that oscillated because of the movement of his arms and hands (he twisted his hands very rapidly on the stick)

he did this all day every day apparently. he usually keep the same stick all day, and if someone tried to offer him a new on and take his away, he would squeal in dissatisfaction. but when after he went to sleep, he woke with no memory of his stick from yesterday and any new stick of correct proportions would do.
there was no way he could walk or even sense balance by the look of it.

he was as profound as i ever witnessed and he was not able to even crawl.

this is a link to a site but it may not be the best. it was the first one i found and it summarily covers a few basic points.

http://brighttots.com/Autism/Low_Functi ... utism.html

Sounds like "locked in syndrome"-- not autism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-In_syndrome

--des